Posted: April 23, 2012 at 6:28 pm
They Still Don’t Get It
The University of Montana football team has penned a strange joint letter to the citizens of Montana that leaves serious doubts about whether the school understands its problem–an alarming series of sexual assaults involving football players.
The five-paragraph letter rambles on about “excellence” in football, but does not once express concern for the women allegedly raped or assaulted by U of M football players.
We also write this letter as students of a University we love, members of a community we cherish and as stewards of one of the most respected and honored football traditions of excellence in the nation.
If the university administration thinks this letter was a good idea, it shows that they still don’t get it. It shows that U of M officials are still more concerned with the football team than the women who were raped.
The whole letter is bizarre. The team writes that:
We understand and accept the fact that a few of our teammates’ actions, whether intended and deserved or not, have contributed to this unfortunate situation.
Just what the players mean by whether their numerous teammates’ actions were “intended and deserved” is unclear. Do they mean that the players deserved to rape women, that the women deserved to be raped, or that the players didn’t deserve to be held accountable?
The letter goes on to say that the players acknowledge their responsibility to honor their supporters and respect their fellow players and coaches. It does not mention their responsibility to respect women (rather than raping them.)
It shows that the trouble at U of M is bigger than the fact that football players aren’t being accountable for their treatment of women. It’s about the school’s failure to address a systematic problem: the way women are treated by the university. It shows that they still don’t get it.
UPDATE: John Marshall’s take on this mess in the Missoula Independent is not to be missed.
Maybe this is a niggling point, though in context, I doubt it. Any allusion that this letter may have been ‘ghost written’ by the UM PR is an insult to the writers to which it is attributed, and stands as Ad Hominem against any critique leveled at those writers.
It does seem like PR speak, but we are talking about college students here. It is not hard to imagine players writing that; they are college students, after all, and I’m sure there’s at least one communications major on the team.
Now, this sentence concerns me –
“we have learned that the rules in today’s public arena are about perception and expediency. ”
Because, actually, the rules of the public arena are not just about perception and expediency, and that’s exactly what got them in trouble in the first place. They thought they could just ignore ‘the facts’ and focus on what was expedient, or rely on the papers to make sure the public never perceived a problem. But guess what? Whether or not any laws were broken, the behavior we are essentially certain occurred is a huge violation of basic morality, and should be cause for concern.
The words that are missing is “What is the Morally right thing to do,”(perception) and “Justice (expediency).”
If that was their attempt……… for the glory of a game…….while no justice for the women……… its a pretty pathetic stab at an apology!
It would be “expedient” for UM to eliminate the perception that it’s okay to rape women if you are a football player. And how about demonstrating “respect” for your sponsors by not making donating to the team an embarrassment because they can’t follow basic laws.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/22/justice/miltary-academy-lawsuit/index.html
This is terrible writing. Sounds like college students were trying to sound like PR flacks. More troubling to me is that UM is promoting it.
This sounds like they got a long way to go, before they realize a mistake was done that hurt women. Pretty sad to evoke as many things as possible, other then investigation…. I think they are hoping, this just goes away! Sad!
This is obviously something that got passed around and got rewritten. The athletes come across I the indifference, as that is part of our athlete/warrior culture. And the it was worked over the the pr people, and they are rank amateurs.
Perhaps the University and the players believe that football is so almighty important that these alleged rapes, perceived lies, and good ol’ boy lawyers, who are U of M staunch supporters, will be enough to evade all consequences. Once it was only private school elitists or the titled aristocracy that walked away from these kinds of atrocities as if they’d done nothing that wasn’t their ‘right’ and then used this form of shibboleth laden non-apology as a sop to the unwashed masses when cornered. Obviously the U of M is teaching morals as an elective.
Engstrom and Foley need to take responsibility for this. If they can’t, perhaps they should resign.
Of course the vast majority of the players on this team are in a way victims. Public opinion of today takes the acts of few and treats the institution or social groups from which they came from as a monolith. Which is certainly illogical, and is textbook Faulty Generalization. Their mistake is responding as a monolith, though that is what teams do.
Taking what was written by the team, “We understand and accept the fact that a few of our teammates’ actions, whether intended and deserved or not, have contributed to this unfortunate situation.”
And somehow arriving at this.
“Do they mean that the players deserved to rape women, that the women deserved to be raped, or that the players didn’t deserve to be held accountable?”
This is obviously sensationalism. If those on the team were or are guilty of the things they have been accused of, (notice the ideal of innocent until proven guilty, welcome to America) then those individuals, whose minds and decision making processes are separated by the craniums of themselves and others should pay the price. Heavily if some of the accusations are true. Rape is as serious as it gets.
I have still not seen a convincing demonstration that statistically, Griz football players are committing crimes at a significantly higher rate than a random sample of a similar amount of individuals within the same demographics would be over the same time period. The media sensationalizes, so a priori, I am always a skeptic when it comes to accusations of a “systematic problem”.
The burden of proof is on the accusers.
Nameless, The Burden of proof since 2007, is already far worse then almost any school in the nation( if you need proof please look at lynns link below). So now that the burden of proof has been established. Lets talk for a minute, about what college really is…. a place of learning, first and foremost.
You don’t go to college to be raped or have your head smashed in by football players playing for your hometown. You don’t have coaches acting the same way as their players! The Grizzlies have had very serious problems with football player delinquency for some time, and other players who are innocent of doing the crimes themselves, but have witnessed the said crimes, are compelled not to speak… sorta a code of silence.
That sir makes them accomplices. If you are a booster of said team and you haven’t threatened to pull your money till the entire Grizzly organization is cleaned up… you are also an accomplice, because football is only a trade for a very few, while countless other programs in that college have made people heroes in their communities in Health, Business, and sciences. Those student who do not play football, are the innocent victims.
Football is only a game. Education is forever!
ILIKEWOODS, I would agree that the UM football program has had a turbulent last few years. But Lynn’s link is exactly the type of media that I am skeptical of. A quick look at the Griz roster shows that at any given time, there are about 150+ players on the team. So, since 2007 it would be safe to assume that there have probably been 300 to 400 different individuals on the Griz roster over this time period. Now, if we were to take a random sample of 400 UM male students, between the years of 2007-2012, I would argue that we could produce a similar list of per capita criminal offenses. Now I’m not sure of this, and haven’t built a spreadsheet to analyze, and won’t, but I feel it is fairly probable.
Yes we do, and probably should, hold Football players to a higher standard than the average UM student. To assume that doing so would change the criminal statistics of a group of 19 and 20 year old males though, would be naive.
And hell no I am not a booster, nor will I ever be. I gave UM plenty of money when I was a student there, and their extravagant spending on the football program disgusts me, as so many young adults struggle to pay their ever increasing tuition.
In no way want to discount the horror of sexual assault, violence, etc. And I would agree that football is just a game and the education of the masses is far more important. I just think it is sloppy to overgeneralize.
Who’s the jerk behind the old “boys will be boys” defense for rapists. This one’s an oldie and a real doozie.
“To assume that [to hold Football players to a higher standard than the average UM student] would change the criminal statistics of a group of 19 and 20 year old males though, would be naive.”
You silly ladies, this is just boys being boys. Don’t be so naive! People like this man make me sick.
Actually, girls will be girls.
See my comment below.
Nameless,
Not a good enough answer! 300-400 individuals ruin the Happiness of another 3000 kids registered at that college, fearful to go out at night because they might be raped or beat by football players, and their antics? Really, and you just gave the “Oh, they are only sowing their wild oats, because their young” Argument? Really? They are supposed to be ambassadors of that school not punks!
Your part of the problem, not the solution I can see that!
For you.
Then I suggest, Norma, that you’re not looking for a solution but rather blame. The first step in problem solving is determining the actual scope of the problem in order to narrow down the list of effective causes. That is precisely what NamelessRange has attempted to do. Sensationalizing an issue stands against any solution because it broadens the scope of effective causes in order to take advantage of that fact.
WHOA dar partner! I probably have as many grizzly shirts as the next SW Montana guy and I love to watch them and BUllDOG sporting events all the time!
BUT……….
The problems with the Grizzly Football team need an Outside investigation now and a thorough cleaning up. Repeatable antics and BS since 2007……… This hurts the Whole school not just the football team, and lets face it…. the women and men who have been hurt by UM Players should get justice….. and so should the community!
So my solution is pretty simple. I have sensationalized nothing, they did that themselves. I just don’t plan on going to anymore games, until I believe these young men have gotten their act together as well as their coaches.
My Money will go to other things at the UM college that make a difference. The football team doesn’t deserve my extra dough, and that’s good for the MW BULLDOGS!
Norma and Grandma, you completely miss the point. Nowhere, did I ever, “defend rapists” or take the side of the
*alleged* offenders by saying they are “sowing their wild oats”. On the contrary, I said quite the opposite. And would expect the most serious of consequences if allegations are true.
I am saying, that if we took the criminal statistics of a random sample of UM students within the same time period, and normalized it for age and gender, we would find that the per capita occurence of criminal offences for the UM football team would be just what we would expect under that statistical subset of the population. Whether you realize it or not, a statement of statistical significance is being made when it is said that there is a “systematic problem” with the UM program. I am merely casting a skeptical eye on such an assertion, which could turn out to be true or not true.
Your arguments are Ad hominem, straw men, or completely whiff in terms of addressing what I am saying.
AS a women speaking on behalf of other women, for their safety, my concerns count! And I would like to see how many men get admittedly raped per capita on that campus…. so I don’t consider my concern for my sisters a “Straw dog.”
Here’s what you men don’t understand….. Rape is a vicious crime that doesn’t happen to males, as often as it does for women. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, which includes crimes that were not reported to the police, 232,960 women in the U.S. were raped or sexually assaulted in 2006.
That’s more than 600 women every day. Damn me, if I ever want to have it happen to Montana women again! Rape’s very definition is about violence towards our sex!
So If you think my argument is “Ad Hominem” ….. Your just not that concerned about women, as you are football!
For Buttinski:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.367581666597157.82568.366379306717393&type=3#!/photo.php?fbid=386363121385678&set=a.367581666597157.82568.366379306717393&type=3&theater
You’re as dense as lead. Not even going to try.
These boys have problems, lots of them
http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/gyrobase/a-play-by-play-look-at-five-years-of-griz-gridiron-success-and-scandal/Content?oid=1546555&showFullText=true
I wonder if this had anything to do with it.
http://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/LettersToTheEditor/archives/2012/04/19/i-miss-panty-raids
Now that’s what I call a great letter to the editor. Good old fashioned scathing sarcasm. Some choice lines for me:
“Bring on the pistol-whipping, home invasion, jaw-fracturing and sex, sex, sex. The latter, of course, only under the conditions of forced, non-consensual and drugged.”
Also, the last paragraph on how the school could education young people is amazing. John gets the gold star of the day from me!
I think these stories of alleged sexual assault are just more of the same nonsense and hysteria we have been flooded over the last decade or so: A college girl has a drink or two, gets frisky, and regrets it the next day or the next week or the next month, usually when the guy will not talk to her anymore, or when everyone is talking about her.
Then a dysfunctional legal systems allows her to convert her lapse in moral judgment into a crime, and she is instantly relieved of any self-doubt about what she has done. What happened is simply not her fault anymore. Indeed, she is now an innocent “victim” and another statistic to be added to the mountain of bogus statistics.
I would like to add, however, that the in latest outbreak of this disease (Yale, U of M, etc.), what we are seeing is the withdrawal of the criminal justice system from investigating and prosecuting these “crimes,” because the system has slowly and belatedly come to realize that no crimes are being committed. Put another way, campuses under the control of mentally disturbed feminists have instituted Star Chamber proceedings and smear campaigns in the press simply because the criminal justice system no longer gives any credence to the overwhelming number of allegations of “sexual assault” or “rape” on college campuses.
The “sexual assault” or “rape” of young women on college campuses is nothing more than a byproduct of mentally disturbed feminists. There is even a name for this psychotic condition: Dworkin’s Disease.
Sorry, I have heard too much of this crap. Real cases of “sexual assault” are rare. Real cases of college girls drinking and having sex are commonplace. We need to stop straining to convert the latter into the former. And the only way to stop that process is to (1) stop granting total anonymity to the purported “victims”; and (2) start holding young women, including teenagers, responsible for their own actions.
Well, folks, I did warn you that it wouldn’t be long before “Max” showed his truly charming nature. Please, for the love of Dog, do not feed the troll. Let him be banned in peace.
So sayeth Mr. Affable. That correspondence course on self-awareness – get a refund.
As I said, don’t feed the trolls.
“Troll” is a word, that like “wingnut” has lost meaning due to overuse. But I do juxtapose myself with the guy that has to be surrounded by supportive voices, desirous of group approval, often referemnicng the group and presuming to be its spokesperson. That would put you in league with Ed Schultz, the right winger who joined the Democrats when he realized that the local right wing radio slot was taken in Fargo.
On the other hand, I usually stand alone, carry counter-cultural views, well thought out and not garrnering mainstream support, because as we all know, the mainstream is not comprised of thinkers. I get branded with the t-word, usually by cowards like you, but don’t accept it. My crimes are thought crimes, my “trolling” is merely speaking a voice that does not harmonize.The guy that takes up around half do the band width here tells me to “leave,” as if it were not a public forum.
If we are going to call each other names, I suggest you merely call me a rebel, as you seem to fit in as a troll better than I – your only interest is cover and support. Ergo your own website and LITW, where you were exposed and criticizes, have died.
“Troll” doesn’t really work for you. “Quisling” works better.
[Well, folks, that’s the Big Bad Mountain Man Liberal Blogging Genius for you: Wulfgar!
His best reply to a well-reasoned, well-written comment is: Ban that writer!]
– Max Bucks
He’s an authoritarian – not a right wing authoritarian perhaps, more like a wild card, but he manifests all the attributes of authoritarians. Banning is only a small part of it.
“The “sexual assault” or “rape” of young nerds on college campuses is nothing more than a byproduct of mentally disturbed nerdists. There is even a name for this psychotic condition: Dorkin’s Disease.”
Thus sayeth Maxine Butts! A SPECIALIST in Dorkin’s disease!
bwhahahahahahahahha!
You see, when Max gets invited to a college party as a prank, and gets a leetle too liquored up, and passes out, and the entire football team INCLUDING all the black players have their WAY with Max, he just shrugs it off! As a college prank! And PLUS, he enjoyed the HELL outta finally bein’ included in college hijinks! bhwhahahahahahahaha!
Max, you’re a funny little moron, dude!
But HEY, Max learned a lesson ’bout Porkin’s Disease!….and he LIKED it!
Nor is it to be given more than it’s share of credit for the sensationalist bombast that it is.
It’s getting pretty damned annoying that next to no discussion of this issue actually offers any solution at all. Rob Natelson actually attempted (~heh~) to offer some and got rightly smacked for the weak nature of his proposals. Yet I really haven’t seen jack from those of us on the leftward side, save blaming the UM Football team. Does any one have the guts to say and defend “get rid of UM football”? No? Did Mr. Marshall offer anything but accusatory snark in his “must read” take? No? Is there anything going on here save hand-wringing over the ‘victim’s pain’ to show how right-minded we are on the issue, while suggesting nothing that promotes a solution going into the future? No? Let’s finger point some more; that will solve things with no doubts, right? No? Do we all feel better now? No?
How about this. MSU had a drug culture growing within it’s athletics program. It led to NCAA sanctions and ultimately to murder. That Kramer got fired, everyone remembers, with more chuckles and snark. But what few seem to remember was the statement from AD Fields that MSU will not tolerate academic or moral failure on the part of it’s staff or representatives. He appealed to the community and the community responded Since that time, several MSU athletes have been suspended from competition due to infractions of the conduct code. An all star running back sat out a season of his eligibility because of academic failure. A star basketball player was cut due to unspecified conduct infractions. One of our best defensive players may not play this year because of an assault that may have been self-defense, but still involved legal malfeasance. These crimes have been exposed by the the MSU PD and the Bozeman PD. The ,essage is clear. This University, this community, will not tolerate a cheapening of our status for athletic success.
Let me be blunt. I’ve been a Griz fan since I was ten. And I still feel that Missoula and it’s supporters can whine all they want about how bad things happen to good people and it’s someone else’s fault. The hell it is. This problem gets solved when the community comes together to solve it. John Marshall can wail and moan about how Griz money gets spent. That won’t influence those who support the Griz at all. It’s just drama queening. He has no say in that at all. What he does have a say in is who the Griz are and who they represent. I’ll think his tirade a “must read” when he actually addresses that point, instead of finger pointing to someone else.
Dear Mr. Kailey,
Nice rant. Tough times for Jizz fans, but compared to being a Cub fan, relax, you’re still in sandlot league when it comes to abuse being heaped on your team.
Sincerely
John Marshall
Couldn’t answer a single complaint with your ego driven wail, could you? It’s a small matter, Mr. Marshall, as you a small person in a small state offering a small whine. You don’t really give a shit about the victims or the solution, do you, drama queen?
Hardly surprising then that Richard Cebull is still hearing cases involving women even though he is a proven misogynist:
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20120420/NEWS01/120420003/Woman-pleads-guilty-false-tax-returns
I’m very frightened for Montana.
Meanwhile: Gov. Schweitzer is pimping for Montana on Letterman….
At least one p
Oops, pushed the wrong key. I intended to type, at least one politician is promoting Montana instead of trashing it like Rick Hill.
Hey, Miss I like Wood: You made a big mistake trying to block my comments. Never listen to Coward Kailey about banning commenters, unless you want your blog to end up dead like his.
This is not Red China or al-Assad’s Syria, you know. This is America.
The Free Speech Horde has 243 proxy servers in 43 countries with over 27,000 IP addresses. I have half a mind to turn your case over to them.
– Max Bucks
You got THAT right, Butts. You got half a mind!! bwhhahahahaha! Oooo! You’re just SO tuff, mr. anonymous! Cute too! bhhahahahahahahahaa! Didn’t we used to hide your briefcase in high school? bhwhahahahaha! Yep. We did! Puuuhleease don’t hit me with your compass, weenie!
Wait, wait!! Please don’t ban me. Please, I beg you. I have no other hobbies or interests than derailing the good people of this site and driving them out. Preventing honest discussion and discourse is my only love in life. I beg of you, please. Give me a reason to go on living. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!
Well of COURSE you don’t, Butts! You ENJOY being the butt of jokes! It’s the only social life you have! bhwhhahahahahah!
rather than banning,
tokebucks, consider self-deportation to north dakota or self-termination like this instead.HEY, LK, lay off poor widdle Maxine Butts. The dude has never been laid! And it shows! You see, the dude really IS suffering from Dorkies Disease! He may have never been laid, but he HAS been psycholOGICALLY raped! Many, many times! By all those callous females that laffed their ASSES off at the little twerp! Hence, he know’s what it’s like to be raped! And he survived. So now, he enjoys and takes great pleasure in seeing the hated female of the species suffering the same fate that HE suffered for his entire life! Since his formative nerd days in high school!
Sure, he’s sick. To take pleasure in the suffering of others. Unable to empathize. But those are ALL classic sypmtons of Dork Disease!
bwhahahahahahahahahhaha!
And Maxine’s got it baaaad!
Do come back, Maxine. You’re a riot, cupcake! And really, you and Buttinski SHOULD get a room together! I think that you two were MEANT for each other! bwhhahahahaha!
I dont see any comments from you Hombre… after just checking in. A lot of spambot products but no comments. Must mean I have your kind on speed dial spam delete! Figures I was that smart!
I’m with Rob, this guy should be ignored.
For the record, and I think this is understood, I am Mark Tokarski, and I do not post under any other name. Max Bucks has been posting under that name for years, and his comments seem to come in waves – months without, and then a storm of them. I personally don’t mind him, as I know him to be 90% put-on, for whatever reasons. People assume avatars for various reasons. I don’t know his. But again, I don’t mind him. I banned him at my website because each post I put up was overloaded with his long comments, scores of them, much as Kralzy does here, so that I had lost control of my own blog. But I accept all kinds of crazy, and regard him as harmless, others less so.
Buttinski, Maxine and you share a TOTAL lack of creativity, a big part of IQ. And that gets real boring. Neither one of you dufus dinks can produce a worthy insult. And that’s real sad. That’s why I too think that you and Maxine Butts are the same dude! Do try harder.
I think when I said all that stuff to you, I said it much better.
Wow! Now THAT was an insult!
bwhahahahahahahahahahahaa!
Pathetic loser, Buttinski. “I think I said it better”! HEY, you know a little Latin and less Greek, but LOTS of Geek! Too funny. Again, you and your butt buddy Maxine Butts need to get a room!
Identity Disturbance in Borderline Personality Disorder: An Empirical Investigation. Psychiatry Online.
I wasn’t talking about you. Am I missing something?
Banning is a Rod Kaikey specialty. Don’t encourage him.
Nothing would put a smile on my day faster!
Back to Montana Cowgirl’s original point, that the folks running UM don’t get it in their concerns for women and accusations of rape. Forget the capers of members of the football team for a moment and remember the Saudi national student who was accused of going after a woman. She reports it to the UM security, and the UM waits until the day the Saudi national has, “left the country”, to tell Missoula Police about the incident that happened a week earlier. The UM acted with equal foolishness concerning the behavior of some of the football team.
They’ve set themselves on fire, no one else did. What to do? Same as before. Reach out to those affected by the crimes committed and help them, before they sue. Shame the perps of the crimes by going public with their mugs and letting the city and UM students know the UM is serious about not wanting this in their university or in Missoula. Otherwise film the pilot for Jizz Nation, and get on with it.
Thanks for the forum Cowgirl
John Marshall
for me, the first step to action is for the university to realize that there is a problem here, and i don’t mean a PR problem. once that happens, they need to propose some solutions. right now, the UM things this is a PR problem. thanks John for speaking out for women.
should read “thinks” in the second to last sentence.
And lest we forget, it’s NOT just about raping women. Sometimes, it’s even much worse. In 1989, Alex Mavity, a Billings Police Officer and a damned good man, was killed by a football player that Rocky Mountain College had brought in to play. The guy should never have been recruited to Rocky with his background, but he was. And Montana lost one of it’s finest police officers as a result, a man that I knew and had worked with in the past. I have never forgotten nor forgiven the college for bringing such a person to Montana. And it happens all the time. There is NO need to recruit players who have criminal backgrounds and criminal propensities! Hell, if you can’t win without criminals, then LOSE! But for God’s sake don’t destroy the integrity of your university! Atheletics just ain’t worth it.
http://www.cpof.org/fallen_officers/?officer=alex_m_mavity&id=38