Posted: December 28, 2012 at 6:25 am

TEA Party Fact Check

Annie BukacekMontana right-wingers are continuing to offer their “solutions” to the Newtown shooting, but those solutions aren’t getting any more credible.

The latest to offer her views is Annie Bukacek.  Bukacek [pronounced BOO'-kuh-check] uses a discredited study to argue on the TEA Party blog PolyMontana this week that the solution to the Newton tragedy is to get a concealed weapon into the hands of as many people as possible.

“Think about it” writes Bukacek. “A criminal planning to commit murder in a public place has to worry that anyone in the area might have a gun. That’s why most mass shootings occur in “gun-free zones.”

She’s pushing for a change in Montana law to get more concealed weapons on the street. A similar law failed to pass the Bat Crap Crazy session of 2011 and is being brought back from the dead by TEA Party Republican and chair of the House Judiciary Committee Krayton Kerns of Laurel.

Bukacek’s screed cites a study which she claims shows that allowing everyone to carry a concealed weapon without a permit reduces mass shootings.  But the supposed study she cites is a fraud.   It’s author, John Lott has been caught using fraudulent data (and lying about it to cover his tracks) in his concealed-carry studies. In fact, the National Research Council’s Committee to Improve Research Information and Data on Firearm examined the research conducted by John Lott and others on concealed-carry laws and found “no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases or increases violent crime.”

This isn’t the first time Bukacek has been caught using fraudulent information to make her case. Earlier this year the failed anti-abortion crusader and AFP spokesperson appears to have delivered false testimony before the Montana Legislature. On January 21, 2011, Bukacek testified before the state Senate Public Health Committee in favor of SB-161, a bill to nullify federal health care laws, and cited “statistics from a 2010 Investor’s  Business Daily article based on a survey  by the United Nations International Health Organization.”

The article and study she cited then do not even exist, actually, nor does the organization she cites.  In fact, this non-existent study is one that right wing activists have been citing across America, in hearings, in articles, on websites.  It’s become an internet meme.  But it’s a big canard, according to the Center for Public Integrity.    There is neither a study nor even a group called the United Nations International Health Organization.

Sadly, Ms. Bukacek is a licensed physician in the state of Montana, albeit with a religious twist–her clinic, which closed down, was called “Hosanna Healthcare.”  She was also investigated for Medicaid fraud, but she claims it was because she prayed with patients.

Bukacek will no doubt be back in the capitol building this session peddling her unique brand of misinformation and conspiracy theories to the right wing of the GOP. This year, however, they won’t have an excuse to buy it.

101 comments

  1. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Annie Pukeacheck reminds me of that OTHER great doctor who loved guns and revolution, Che! Yes, Annie the Fannie is another great revolutionary for G-O-D!, who believes in wastin’ godless perps for JAYsus! She’s another Che Guevara, or as I prefer to call her, Chi Chis Pukeacheck, for she really IS a big boob! Now all Chi Chis needs is a beret!

  2. Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

    All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. ~George Orwell

    The problem is The GOP doesn’t have a clue what real reality is anymore. They have made up a world in their minds pretty much since the Clinton Administration…. and can’t find there way back, since they ran out of bread crumbs Years ago.

    There will never be a GOP president again. The Right wing Pundits know it, and statistics pretty much show it. The Election of Barack Obama is just the most startling manifestation of a larger trend: the gradual erosion of “whiteness” as the touchstone of what it means to be American. Good riddance, I say Color, Race and Sexual gender is a barrier, to a better country for all America.

  3. Dallas Reese

    If Ms. Bukacek truly believes this, she should take it to its most extreme conclusion: mandatory issuance of concealed weapon permits, and the acccompanying handguns, to everyone over the age of 18 including those that are still in high school.

  4. Dennis Taylor

    So, people with violent psychiatric disorders, domestic violence perpetrators, and so on should all be secretly packing in bars and that would prevent shootings? Absurd-whether based on flawed”evidence” or no, Bulacek should not e taken seriously given her record.

  5. The Polish Wolf

    Bulacek’s ‘evidence’ is confusing two different phenomena – mass murders and homicide rates. As I’ve said before, mass murders happen worldwide, regardless of how many guns there are or what the rules are to get them. A person whose only goal is to kill others, and who doesn’t care if they die in the process, will not be easily stopped.

    However, homicide rates in the US are astronomical compared to other countries, and I’m willing to bet that most of those don’t happen in gun-free zones, and the greater prevalence of guns certainly doesn’t diminish the homicide rate.

  6. Dave Skinner

    Good gravy. Norma, what if you’re wrong, and you are….
    I ran the numbers and the average, including Newtown, is 4.75 deaths in each of the last 12 years, against 25-35 school homicides (often with a suicide) annually.
    Kent Conrad said 8 billion for cops in schools? Assuming we save all those 4.75 people with all that money, the cost per life saved is 1.68 billion a pop. Which conversely will buy a lot of counseling, ammo, and maybe some history or logic teachers?
    Concealed carry is schools against such odds is insane. I would not hump a 45 ACP when the odds of one event per year is 1 in 132,000. However, having concealed lockers in schools with response items, accessible to trained volunteers, might be the most efficient and least wasteful option. Rather than have Hochsprung die unarmed, what if she, or someone at least as brave, had been prepared AND only seconds away?
    Different outcome.

    • James Conner

      Interesting statistics. School massacres are such unlikely events that I suspect the odds that a guard would go nuts and start shooting might be higher than the odds that a nut would advance on the school with an AR-15.

      • Rob Kailey

        It’s all about initiative; who gets to shoot first. Skinhead’s “locker” idea wouldn’t prevent anything, especially if PTSD folk are guarding the hen house …

        • Dave Skinner

          Rob, you clod, if the baddie is already shooting and the good guys can’t, who the flip actually wins? Dianne Feinstein?
          The point here is to stop the threat before the killer decides to stop. Kinda like in Rochester where Grandma Killer got popped by the cops — shut down HIS plan, the guy who grew up and was a psycho before video games and which a bazillion laws didn’t seem to bother.
          Hochsprung already ran to the sound of gunfire even though she didn’t have a chance. What if she HAD a chance, you dork?
          Yeah, I can see you sitting there with your 300 Win Mag 800 yards from the school just wishing for me to walk by. And then you’ll be asleep when it matters.
          And by the way, what’s the cheap shot about PTSD implying?

        • Rob Kailey

          Skinhead, you jackass, if the “baddie” is already shooting and the good guys can’t because they haven’t made it to your fantasy locker, then nothing changes, does it, cupcake? Just today, a cop shop in New Jersey got shot to hell and wouldn’t it have helped if it weren’t a gun free zone, right?

          Good Dog, you are a moron.

            • Rob Kailey

              Correlation is not causation. A locker being close means nothing, especially if a pissed off kid with a grudge and will to use firearms gets to it first. You should be talking about initiative (causation), Skinhead. Instead, you are offering an NRA placebo.

              So many want to define insanity as doing the same thing over again and thinking the result will be different. They point to Senator Feinstein attempting to renew a bill that was offered once and proved ineffective. Funny that, Skinhead. Folk like you have offered the same solution since the 1980s. More guns, more guns, more guns. That mantra hasn’t had a lick of good effect. My question is, given the current popular definition of insanity, who would be the more insane? Quite clearly it would be you.

              • Dave Skinner

                You’re the one who mentioned sniping first, not me.
                As for the locker, smarty, it has a lock and alarm hooked to the PD. Further, it’s hidden behind something innocuous and the kids never ever see it. They have no clue it even exists, and hopefully won’t ever. The actual odds of a Newtown happening in any school are, if you have one every year (we don’t), one in 132,000 per year. Per day, per school, one in 21 million.
                For any student in any of these schools over the 12 year period, that student has the odds of 1 to 11,000 of being in the building. On a yearly basis, each student has a 1 in 11.5 million chance of being a victim of a mass shooter.
                I’m sorry, but those are infinitesimal odds that do not justify full-time police. Nor do such odds justify regular “carry.” Hire a cop at 100,000 grand a year, every year, plus a pension? Are you nuts? Spend the money on mental health or even, golly gee, EDUCATION.
                But when the dirty day comes, as it will, somewhere, immediately there is an intense need for full-force response in a short time frame — as in seconds, not minutes. Seconds.
                Now, you don’t have to volunteer, Rob. You’re a rotten shot and scared to get too close. But there are Americans who would be proud and happy to be trained for the contingency. And who better than willing educators, who know everyone who belongs in the school, and know every nook and cranny of the building?
                Doesn’t have to be all of them, but enough should be willing to step up. For free.
                I think what you are most afraid of, Rob, is it might work. That would be much better than what we have now, which doesn’t work too well.

                    • Dave Skinner

                      LK, you didn’t read my post fully.
                      I wrote “Hire a cop at 100,000 grand a year, every year, plus a pension? Are you nuts? Spend the money on mental health or even, golly gee, EDUCATION.”
                      So no, I’m not interested at all in a rentacop, in a church or school. Not against districts hiring them themselves if they are in a higher-risk context, like a megachurch or slum elementary — but that’s only for the OTHER crimes.
                      In fact, I’ve already written I’m not interested in teacher carry, either. Two reasons I’d like to elucidate:
                      1. The odds are SO flipping small of an event happening. Why schlump a pistol around all day, for years?
                      2. When the killer jumps into a classroom or lecture hall, who will Killer pop first? Teacher. Usually the biggest target, all by his or her lonesome up front.
                      I can see a secure gun safe under the desk (which is cover and could be a fine resting point for accurate defensive fire) in case there is warning, but a holstered firearm is pretty much an encumbrance and a hassle requiring too much multitasking during the “normal” course of events. Keep track of 30 kids AND a weapon? That’s too much to ask.

                    • larry kurtz

                      Gee, Dave: that’s nearly lucid. I concur.

                      Happy Weird-Gregorian-Calendar-That- Makes-No-Sense-To-Anyone Eve!

    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

      People make their own Conclusions based on their understanding of how things work, and their total disregard of logic when it doesn’t. The problem with people like you Dave is your logic is not fact based, it is based on what you imagine is right. What you can comprehend.How you can make Facts Appear….

      You Conservatives have been Basing your facts on Appearances for years. Dean Koontz one of my favorite smart authors said it best about your Idea of Fact in the “Good Guys”: “Appearances are not reality; but they often can be a convincing alternative to it. You can control appearances most of the time, but facts are what they are. When the facts are too sharp, you can craft a cheerful version of the situation and cover the facts the way that you can covered a battered old four-slice toaster with a knitted cozy featuring images of kittens.” The only one not making sense here is you Dave, But hey thanks for the shout out…. even if it was malformed Appearance-orientated Bullshit!

      • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

        Lastly Dave: The nation might be in a better position to act if medical and public health researchers had continued to study these issues of gun Violence, as diligently as some did between 1985 and 1997. But in 1996, pro-gun members of Congress mounted an all-out effort to eliminate the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Although they failed to defund the center, the House of Representatives removed $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget—precisely the amount the agency had spent on firearm injury research the previous year. Funding was restored in joint conference committee, but the money was earmarked for traumatic brain injury. The effect was sharply reduced support for firearm injury research.

        To ensure that the CDC and its grantees got the message, the following language was added to the final appropriation: “none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.”4

        Silencing the Science on Gun Research http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1487470 From the Journalof the American Medical Association!

        • Dave Skinner

          That’s right, Norma, the money was specifically not to be used to “advocate or promote gun control” which a lot of these studies did.
          It’s advocacy, posing as science, but not science. Values-driven science loses all scientific value.

          • James Conner

            From the JAMA article:

            “But in 1996, pro-gun members of Congress mounted an all-out effort to eliminate the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Although they failed to defund the center, the House of Representatives removed $2.6 million from the CDC’s budget—precisely the amount the agency had spent on firearm injury research the previous year. Funding was restored in joint conference committee, but the money was earmarked for traumatic brain injury. The effect was sharply reduced support for firearm injury research.

            “To ensure that the CDC and its grantees got the message, the following language was added to the final appropriation: “none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control.” Precisely what was or was not permitted under the clause was unclear. But no federal employee was willing to risk his or her career or the agency’s funding to find out. Extramural support for firearm injury prevention research quickly dried up. Even today, 17 years after this legislative action, the CDC’s website lacks specific links to information about preventing firearm-related violence.

            “When other agencies funded high-quality research, similar action was taken.”

            I disagree with Dave that the science or scientists or agencies were tainted. The people obstructing, preventing, perhaps suppressing, research in this area simply do not want to have anyone uncover facts that the gunpowder caucus would find inconvenient. And that’s the kind of information they think the research would turn up, otherwise they wouldn’t be opposed to the research.

            • Dave Skinner

              The author of that article is Arthur Kellermann, who apparently was one of those who caught Congress’s attention — look at the “citations” and he has his own reference — to something he produced in 1993, perfect timing. So he’s miffed because his gravy train was derailed.
              Never mind that federally funded science has more cachet than that funded by, say, the Joyce Foundation? Which I guess provides “extramural” money, just not enough for all the crusaders out there.

            • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

              Ah Dave thinks the scientists “Appeared” Tainted?

              See Dave Not only have you proved Dean Koontz’s theory right, You have proved Mine. Whenever You Conservatives don’t understand parts of the world, you Ignore it, Shoot it dead, or try to defund it because you don’t think it is important to your Violent, fascist Corporate world…. unless it buys into your reality.

              I see your party imploding day by day like a collapsing star! Hope it happens quick for the sake of the Country, and the world economy you folks are willing to ruin. or you run out of little kittie doilies to cover up your mistakes soon!

              • Dave Skinner

                No, Norma, I’ve known of Kellermann and his junk for years. Same deal with Garen Wintemute et cetera. These folks are advocates first, scientists last.
                If you are so interested in firearms “science,” you can always choose to support these people and their “research” with your own money.
                I’ll spend mine on something I find more useful.

                • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                  Dear Dave, Your not an expert on anything but Mouthing off in Conservative Codswallop.

                  This is why the majority of Americans who voted for Democratic principles cant have nice things. Like Peace, Health Care, a sound economy and JOBS. Gun Ownership is not a religion, it is a violent frame of mind for some in your party. You don’t fight fire with fire, you smother it with water to put it out.

                  Those scientists Kellerman and Rivara are at the top of the game as doctors of children medicine and pediatrics. They care about the children who died with 3 to 11 bullet holes in each little Body….. and the CDC is the model for a healthy nation all other countries use to follow for up to the minute health care…. Please stop being so Ignorant, without the facts to back your ass up!

  7. Richard Miller

    Ah shucks, what a woman! Wonder if her stand is a violation of her Hippocratic oath. Oh, excuse me, I mean hypocritical oath. Dumb female dog.

  8. Publius II

    ‘Doc’ Kerns – (chair, judicial, oh boy) should heed the stern judgement of revered WESTERN hero Wyatt Earp – and ‘Doc’ Holiday’ – who issued ordinance in Tombstone and other towns, LEAVE THE GUNS out of town, secure ‘em with the sheriff or other agent…Don’t ‘the’ Teabaggers and ilk believe their ‘Code of The West’, good ‘enuf for Wyatt but not them? Another note, the 2nd Amendment was focused on a REGULATED militia, where all white males were expected to serve, and a small percentage were indeed the TRUE ‘Minutemen’, the most capable, fittest men with best weaponry who could respond in minutes to assemble at the town commons. Remember, these were the closest represenatives to an armed constabulary, as most colonial towns did NOT have uniformed, trained and responsive LAW ENFORCEMENT police and sheriff departments, other than one or two constables (COP, Constable on Patrol). Maybe, just MAYBE, a school could have a ‘ready squad’, a few personnel MENTALLY capable of dealing with a threat and well-trained and DISCPLINED, but that’s a tall order even
    for regular uniformed police officers and even National Guardsmen in a chaotic situation where civilians could easily become collateral damage.

  9. Elizabeth

    The Supreme Court has decided that law enforcement has no duty to protect the individual. It is up to individuals to protect themselves. Law enforcement is there to record the crime and investigate it after the fact.

    Congress has removed the ability for individuals in schools to protect themselves, thereby creating a “target rich environment” commonly called a gun free zone.

    Is the solution to arm all teachers and staff? I hope not. I would be concerned that a student could easily overpower a teacher and get their hands on the weapon. The suggestion to have a “locker” would at least give teachers and staff more of a fighting chance. Just the knowledge that these “lockers” existed could be a deterrent.

    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

      Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
      Dwight D. Eisenhower

    • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

      It ain’t the guns, folks. It’s much worse. It’s republican HEALTH care that’s on a killing spree!

      http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/12/30-4

      Ask anyone who’s ever had to attempt to deal with the mental health system in this country. Good luck with that. Evil has come to this country in the form of the ReePube party.

      • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

        Petroleum based Phrama! if we could get them out of American lives as effectively as the Icarus project is trying for mental illness without the drugs, there might never be an oil shortage, and people would be healthier.

        I have to say the most stunning words to me was by a doctor… Who told me, all the pharmaceuticals my mom was taking to make her function made her almost insane in the end. by taking them away. for the last couple of days of her life (except for plant based pain pills) she was the same mother I knew when she was well. Sane and saddened she had been duped by medicine.

        Refined gasoline in a pill that people happily take thinking it is making them better…. is one of the biggest lies out there!

  10. Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

    Nancy Lanzas Might have been a PREPPER, but Her stupidity killed her in her sleep. See, she was shot in the face by the Monster she help produce, while she slept in her bed…. She never saw it coming….

    As for the slave Patrols in Virginia that the commonwealth wanted to keep beefed up…. well that is just another version of waving a now defeated confederate flag of racism. It is no mistake that the NRA, was started in the south as well.

    An AR 15 can shoot up to 400 rounds a minute. Adam was carrying 100 round clips folks. The musket our fore-fathers used can shoot only one lead ball a minute. Beleive me they were not thinking about todays weapons, nor were they thinking about insane gun nuts carrying such weapons. I shudder to think of all the harm that will be done to unsuspecting Americans, by nutcases who take Fox news and the NRA at there word.

    • Dave Skinner

      JFC, Norma,
      You smack me on “facts?”
      NRA was founded in New York in 1871, first president was General Burnside of sideburns and Civil War note. Noo Yawk.
      Up to 400 rounds a minute? Darn, I’d like to see you try that. Six shots a second? For a full minute? And hit anything smaller than a house? And d’ya know how much 400 rounds weighs?
      And that citation Larry dredges up from the UK makes a point — Chicago, home of gun control and other progressive perfections, had 500 murders this year? Where “assault weapons” are banned, banned, banned! And the slaughter wasn’t weren’t in the rich ‘hoods, no sir. Oh no, in the areas of “income inequality.” No mention of demographics.
      The good old Washington Post published a murder map of DC that shows the same pattern, a bloodbath south and east of Rock Creek Park. Again, why?
      Thanks for making my day, LK.

        • Havre Voter

          Judging from your not so subtle tone, you’d probably be among the first to protest in opposition to the 2nd Amendment should minorities begin to own guns in proportion to their white counterparts. Care to also post the relevent data on how such crime correlates to poverty levels? Or would that too greatly undermine your agenda?

      • Norma Duffy

        Bwahahaha Dave AR-15 can shoot up to 800 rounds a minute if they are fully automatic. a semi automatic can shoot up to 400 rounds a minute because of the mechinism regarding firing. Out of the Box without any modification they fire 5 shot groupings as fast as you can pull the trigger!

        *The main mechanism of operation for the rifle is known as direct gas impingement. Gas is tapped from the barrel as the bullet moves past a gas port located above the rifle’s front sight base. The gas rushes into the port and down a gas tube, located above the barrel, which runs from the front sight base into the AR-15′s upper receiver. Here, the gas tube protrudes into a “gas key” (bolt carrier key) which accepts the gas and funnels it into the bolt carrier.

        “”The bolt and bolt carrier together form a piston, which is caused to expand as the cavity in the bolt carrier fills with high pressure gas. The bolt is locked into the barrel extension, so this expansion forces the bolt carrier backward a short distance in line with the stock of the rifle to first unlock the bolt. As the bolt carrier moves toward the butt of the gun, the bolt cam pin, riding in a slot on the bolt carrier, forces the bolt to turn and unlock from the barrel extension. (The gas system only serves to unlock the bolt while the projectile has long exited the barrel). Once the bolt is fully unlocked it begins its rearward movement along with the bolt carrier. The bolt’s rearward motion extracts the empty cartridge case from the chamber, and as soon as the neck of the case clears the barrel extension, the bolt’s spring-loaded ejector forces it out the ejection port in the side of the upper receiver. The bolt is much heavier than the projectile, and along with the recoil-spring pressure inside the stock buffer-tube performs the cartridge ejection function and chambers the following cartridge.”

        It pretty much shoots itself

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15

        So your argument seems pretty lame doesn’t it

        The NRA might have been started in new York but it has been Headquartered in Virginia, as long as I have been on this planet. Its first president was a civil war General By the name of Ambrose. So go ahead and tell me how much new York is left in that ORG. None!

        Lastly NRA has gone out of its way to put guns back into criminals hands.

        Under federal law, those convicted of a felony are forbidden from purchasing or possessing firearms and explosives. Yet as the result of a 1965 NRA amendment to the Federal Firearms Act of 1938, convicted felons were allowed to apply to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) for “relief” from the “disability” of not being able to buy and possess guns. The “relief from disability” program was established as a favor to firearms manufacturer Winchester, then a division of Olin Mathieson Corporation.1 In 1962 Olin Mathieson pleaded guilty to felony counts stemming from a kickback scheme involving Vietnamese and Cambodian pharmaceutical importers. Under the law as it existed at the time, Winchester could no longer be licensed as a firearm manufacturer. The “relief from disability” program allowed Winchester to stay in business.

        “Relief” Program Becomes Felons’ Second-Chance Club

        Although created to benefit one corporation, the program quickly became a mechanism by which thousands of individuals with felony convictions had their gun privileges restored. In the 10-year period from1982 until 1992, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms processed more than 22,000 applications. Between 1985 and 1990 ATF granted “relief” in approximately one third of those cases. (ATF estimated that approximately one third of those not granted “relief” chose to drop out of the process, while the remaining one third were denied “relief.”)

        The crimes committed by those individuals granted “relief” were not limited to non-violent, “white collar” crimes like those committed by Olin. Through the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) the Violence Policy Center obtained 100 randomly selected files of felons granted “relief.” Among those 100 cases were: five convictions for felony sexual assault; 11 burglary convictions; 13 convictions for distribution of narcotics; and, four homicide convictions. In fact, of the 100 sample cases, one third involved either violent crimes (16 percent) or drug-related crimes (17 percent).

        For 20 years, however, felons convicted of crimes “involving the use of a firearm or other weapon” or of violations of federal firearm laws were ineligible to apply for “relief.” This changed in 1986, when a law backed by the National Rifle Association took effect. The Firearm Owners’ Protection Act (also known as FOPA or McClure/Volkmer for the bills’ Senate and House sponsors) expanded the program to allow felons convicted of gun crimes to obtain “relief.” And gun criminals certainly took advantage of the program. Of the 100 sample cases obtained by the Violence Policy Center, eight were for firearm violations, including two convictions for illegal sales of machine guns.

        http://www.vpc.org/studies/felons.htm

        We can Start by dumping these relief Laws written by the NRA as a start. but they will do whatever they can to keep guns in Felons, and disturbed people hands

          • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

            Look I am only writing down what Manufacturing folk say the gun can do. You’ll have to find your own supplier.

        • Dave Skinner

          Aw gee, Norma found Wiki? That’s your expertise?
          Norma, you just TRY to shoot 400 rounds in one minute from ANY AR, semi or full. You don’t even need to aim.
          You will either have cook-offs or see molten metal. You will most definitely not be able to hit a thing after the darn thing cools off.

          • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

            The AR 15 was never made to aim Dave it was made to spray. It can be a tactical sniper weapon at short distances around 300 yards

            Secondly all you have to do is go down to the bottom of the Wiki page to see the Link credits ( otherwise known as references for the ill informed like you). Most of them are intact and are of the original data spreads for the gun by the manufacturing Co.. Obviously you don’t back-check the information on wiki to see if someone is talking out their ass or not. Since you dont seem to look past to the links to check the facts, before publishing the facts, the only one looking like an ass is you!

            Sorry bud! But your lack of understanding about these guns, becomes clearer each time you open your mouth! Some of the links you Missed:

            http://world.guns.ru/assault/usa/m16-m16a1-m16a2-m16a3-e.html

            The origins of the M16 rifle lay in the research, conducted soon after the Korean war by Operations Research Office (ORO), founded at Hopking University and sponsored by US Army. Among the reports, produced by the ORO, two are most significant in this respect, the so called Hall and Hitchmann reports. One report stressed the fact that most hits, achieved by soldiers in battle, were made at relatively short ranges (within 300 meters) and, mostly, at random. This significantly undermined the obsession for long-range aimed fire, promoted by the Army. Second report suggested, that the most effective way to increase the probability of hits in the battle is to fire multiple small caliber, high velocity projectiles with controlled dispersion instead of one, relatively heavy and large projectile as used in conventional rifles at the time.

            http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/353341/M16-rifle

            M16 rifle, also called Ar-15, assault rifle adopted as a standard weapon by the U.S. Army in 1967. The M16 superseded the M14 rifle. It is gas-operated and has both semiautomatic (i.e., autoloading) and fully automatic capabilities. Weighing less than 3.6 kg (8 pounds) and equipped with a 20-round or 30-round magazine, the M16 is 99 cm (39 inches) long and fires 5.56-millimetre (.223-calibre) ammunition at the rate of 700–950 rounds per minute. Both U.S. and South Vietnamese forces used it during the Vietnam War

            http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/evolution-ar

            I could keep going, but you get the point. read the references to make sure the any article is the real thing! This wiki page is quite correct, because it seems to written by affectionados!

            • Dave Skinner

              Oh, for flip’s sake, Norma.
              I guess you haven’t seen the DMR versions of the Stoner platform, have you? Those are definitely for aiming. So’s the version I have.
              Both the Russians and Germans got busy with lightening the battle load and upping the rate of fire during WW2. There was the PPSh 41 and PPS 43, full auto subguns with entire units solely armed for close-in urban fighting. Then the STGW 44, the daddy of all assault rifles, literally named that.
              The Russians found using the Tokarev pistol round wasn’t enough poop, so they developed the M-43 against the 8×33 Kurz of the Germans. That was first used in Simonov’s SKS, but didn’t come into full flower until the AK and RPD.
              This smaller fascinated the Allies, and especially fascinated the logisticians. And made a lot of tactical sense, given the experience with Tommy guns and M1 carbines being lighter and still effective — well, at least the Tommy gun’s ammo was lighter and smaller than full house 30-06. End result was the 308 after a bunch of American arm-twisting.
              Believe whatever you want, Norma. You’re not in the Senate where you could be damaging — but there’s no substitute for first-hands-on understanding.

            • James Conner

              Let me recommend “The Gun,” by C.J. Chivers, http://www.amazon.com/The-Gun-C-J-Chivers/dp/0743271734/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1357072564&sr=8-1&keywords=chivers+gun

              The chapter on the M-16 is enlightening. At one point, the Army specified that a round fire from the M-16 had to penetrate a steel helmet at 500 yards. That requires aiming. It also required a high muzzle velocity, which resulted in faster cycling and in the weapon’s early days, a lot of jamming.

              In one sense, all weapons are aimed. The method of aiming and firing determines how tightly the hits are grouped and how accurate the fire is. Shooting from the hip — spraying — is low precision aiming, although certainly effective at knife fighting ranges. Consistently hitting targets 100 yards away requires using the weapons sights, which is what we usually think about when we talking about aiming. M-16s can be aimed both ways.

            • Rob Kailey

              I suggest that if you’ve been drug into an argument about what a weapon can do (performance) as opposed to the use one puts that weapon to (consequence of performance) then you’ve already lost sight of any agenda you seek to accomplish.

              • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                For Gods sake we are talking about Civilians, not soldiers Dave. I could aim a moltov at the head of a guy and still burn everyone around him, thats the whole Idea of using all the weapon of war like an AR-15 in Battle. It is not necessary to aim, only to point in the direction, and pull the trigger. They have no business in civilian’s hands. there is no declared wars in the streets of America.

                And James the gun had to support a bullet that handled the grams of gunpowder necessary to “penetrate a steel helmet at 500 yards.” Still doesn’t mean aim it means penetration.

                The average soldier is not given enough training to successfully aim, compared to a sniper, According to figures released by the Department of Defense, the average number of rounds expended in Vietnam to kill one enemy solder with the M-16 was 50,000.

                The average number of rounds expended by U.S. military snipers to kill one enemy soldier was 1.3 rounds. That’s a cost-difference of $23,000 per kill for the average soldier, vs. $0.17 per kill for the military sniper.

                According to the U.S. Army, the average soldier will hit a man-sized target 10 percent of the time at 300 meters using the M16A2 rifle. Graduates of the U.S. Army sniper school are expected to achieve 90 percent first-round hits at 600 meters, using the M24 Sniper Weapon System (SWS).

                • Rob Kailey

                  Norma, you appear to still be missing the point. Auto-fire weapons are not being used to kill ‘civilians’. AR-15s are not battle rifles, and are not used in war. “Aiming” has nothing to do with the argument at hand; the action of the weapon really does. Focus, please. I repeat:

                  I suggest that if you’ve been drug into an argument about what a weapon can do (performance) as opposed to the use one puts that weapon to (consequence of performance) then you’ve already lost sight of any agenda you seek to accomplish.

                • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                  Another example of this particular kind of fallacy regarding Dave’s thought process can be expressed as follows:

                  In Nevada, just under one thousand nuclear explosions have occurred. Meanwhile, no one has ever been reported to have been killed by one.

                  Conclusion: Nuclear weapons cannot kill people.

                  The purpose of his argument is apparently not to inform readers correctly in his comments, but to get them to think a certain way, by his veiled appearances of the facts, based on an absurd logic of guns being need more than ever… The new nuclear deterrent… since little kids were killed. Cause that will sure as hell calm everything right down????

                  Where do all these misdirection’s and irrational juxtapositions of facts come about in that Noggin of yours Dave?

                    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                      And Yes Rob the Bushmaster 223 the very gun used by Adam Lanza is actually also a known variant of the M-4 Carbine still in use in over 60 countries as a military and police weapon!

                    • Dave Skinner

                      Gosh, Norma, do you even know the difference between a Bushmaster and a Colt or maybe a Doublestar? Or what makes an M4 different from, say, a Dissipator?
                      No, you probably don’t. And don’t try to look it up.

                    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                      Geez Dave yes I do! As a matter of fact! And you point is what?

                      While thinking up your next senseless attack on me… heres some information on how much damage was done to those poor people in Sandyhook http://bajaarizona.org/fklr/fklr.html

                      Loser, I don’t think you realize Again that my family is all military… or that my son Michael still serves. Or that women do successfully hunt for the table just as well as some guys I know. Amazing!

                    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                      What you need re-education?????? Jeez Dave why dont you enlighten yourself for a change and stop changing the subject! This all kinda started with some Dumbed down theory you ejected into the atmosphere about putting gun Lockers in schools didn’t it?? How you were gonna train teachers to carry weapons… or some such nonsense.

                      Why dont you enlighten us for a change! How is this escalation of weaponry all gonna make our kids safe?

                      For a guy that screams big government all the time…. seems like you conservatives are willing to put a cop in every bedroom , school, and church throughout America.

                      Tell me how much you think that is gonna cost??? watching for sexual deviants and mass murderers. Oh shit I forgot your kind also want to start a database of crazy people too. You could always do what the Germans did in WW2 and make each person you think has mental problems wear a yellow star! Just saying! Your kind seems to be going big brother, and Fascist all at the same time.

                    • Rob Kailey

                      Norma, when it comes to ‘subject’ you’re kind of all over the map.

                      One of the most insidious weapons in the arsenal of anti-gun-control folk is what I call ‘specific ignorance’. They wait for a gun control advocate to say something non-specific or incorrect about firearms and then pounce with the fallacy of false authority. I mean no offense, but you walked right into that here. The Bushmaster .223 that Lanza used is not a variant of the M-4 or the military issue M-16. It is a separate weapon defined by its action of cycling rounds. Equating a select-fire automatic action rifle with a purely semi-automatic civilian weapon only plays into the hands of the NRA and like minded. If I laid a deck-out AR-15, purchasable at Walamrt, next to a military issue sun-machine gun, it would take a close inspection to tell the difference. But the select-fire auto is certainly more lethal than the civilian model.

                      Equating the two serves the narrative of the right. At very least, it is fear-mongering, which they are enormously better at then the left is. At worst, it confuses the definitions of what firearms should be controlled and how. Weapons capable of auto-fire are already tightly controlled. Mixing them with semi-autos opens a can of worms neither side wants to deal with.

                    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                      So did that ego of yours….. Willing to throw the Kitchen Dollie over the entire table of facts, except for yours. I See I didn’t miss much being away for awhile. LOL Bwah hahahaha

                    • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

                      Hey Ive done what most lefties don’t have the spine to do, in a Republican dominated area… Run. Speak to misfit power, and show there is another way, and I will do it again.

                    • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

                      Norma, there are many ways to serve. You will get your chance to hold office yet. But in the MEANtime, you are a superb writer, and I hope that you continue to write without hesitation as part of your service.

    • James Conner

      I believe he was carrying 30-round clips (the 100-round drums tend to jam). 400 rounds a minute? I think there’s a misplaced decimal point. 40 rounds a minute would be closer to the mark, and that would require changing out one clip. He could probably fire bursts at one or two rounds per second, which is a lot faster than he could have fired had he been using a .223 bolt-action varmint rifle with 6-round clips. That’s the salient comparison.

      (The fully automatic CAR-15 that LK reports using in ‘Nam fired at a rate of 700 or so rounds per minute,)

      • Dave Skinner

        Not a misplaced decimal — an official spin from the gun-haters Norma regurgitated. It is possible to hose rounds fairly fast. Accurately is another matter entirely.
        Never mind that super-size, super-scary magazines the big mags tend to jam. The double-drums out there require graphite help, which is an automatic nonstarter for me. Never fired one, never even seen one, just not interested when better and more reliable options are out there.
        The Soviet 75 rounders are pretty reliable, but way bulky and heavy, slow to load, and take up the space of at least 8 30-rounders. They look cool, tho. Shouldn’t have sold mine (for 30 bucks, I’d paid 20).
        Frankly, a ban on 100 rounders would probably be counterproductive, because if a bad guy has one and it jams (as it almost certainly will), that’s a really, really good thing. If some nut has 100 rounds tied up in a useless magazine, that’s way better than 90 rounds in three, with 60 available after a mag change.
        Never mind that anyone with a 100 rounder, by the time you finally get all the way through a magazine without a jam, you’ve fried the barrel and will miss badly from then on.

        • Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

          Ar-15′s can shoot up to 800 rounds a minute Dave the only one regurgitating Bull crap is you!

          • James Conner

            The fully automatic military version of the AR-15 could spew 800 or so rounds a minute depending on the ammunition and barrel length. The semi-automatic civilian version can fire only as fast as the gunman can pull the trigger, perhaps two rounds a second for short bursts. Infantrymen are taught to fire their assault weapons in short bursts, say three rounds, so in practice, for short periods, a semi-automatic weapon can approach the rate of fire of the fully automatic weapon.

            If we accept that there are two kinds of AR-15s — the fully automatic military version (and its derivations, such as the M-16 family), and the semi-automatic civilian version — and agree that only the military version is capable of a rate of fire of hundreds of rounds a minute, we can resolve this dispute over an AR-15′s rate of fire.

      • Rob Kailey

        For the fully automatic M-16, 400 rounds a minute is about correct *if* one ignores reload time. The weapon that Lanza carried was not full auto. Sideshow Bob in the Aurora theater did use a hundred round drum. Much gets made of the fact he only killed 12 people, somewhat ignoring the fact that he injured 70+ in a matter of minutes. Much also get’s made of the fact that his drum jammed, *after* he had injured 70+ people in a matter of minutes. The deadliest mass shooter (in the US) was still Cho at Virginia Tech, with two pistols and a backpack full of loaded clips. It took him considerably longer to cause destruction than it took Holmes in Aurora. 400 rounds of .223 would be about 10-12 lbs. not including the weight of the clips. Not negligible, but certainly not prohibitive.

        I’m not throwing this out to come down on any side of the argument, save to point out this. a) Disdain about ‘gun ignorance’ coming from people like Skinner does not help their side because it ignores what the gun-control advocates really want and insults them by doing it. Willfully confusing general gun homicide statistics with the mass shootings which serve to inflame gun-control advocacy really is kinda silly. Our nation created the largest security apparatus (save the military) in history because on a one bad day. You have a statistically higher chance of being shot for whatever reason than being blowed up in an act of domestic terrorism, yet the sale and tracking of nitrogen fertilizer is strictly controlled. Mocking gun control advocates is ignoring the fact that the will to do ‘something’ is only strengthened in a country which is obviously remarkably reactionary. Instead of mocking opponents and advocating for a more loathsome police state, maybe we should be looking at something else.

        b) Victim blaming and monster making with breathless scary hyperbole does not serve the cause of gun control because it focuses on fear and not fact. Nancy Lanza was not ‘stupid’ and even if she was, that shouldn’t be a fatal crime. Adam Lanza was not a ‘monster’. The fact at hand is exactly what you point out, James. Efficiently lethal weapons aren’t defined by misstatement and fear, but by the action of the firearm. It is not the scary look of the bloody weapon in the hands of the antagonist starring in Grade-School Massacre on Bloody Valentine’s Day Friday the Thirteenth. The fact at hand is that those with a will or mental state to do so kill very efficiently with easy access to semi-automatic weapons. Instead of talking about ‘monsters’ or banning the machete because monsters use them, maybe we should be talking about how to keep highly efficient weapons out of the hands of those who would misuse them without infringing on the rights of those who wouldn’t, and furthering a more loathsome police state.

        • Dave Skinner

          Pretty good, Rob. Really.
          The overreaction to 9/11 and failure to understand the real nature of political terrorism in the wake of that disaster has put our liberty at risk. Free people do not engage in acts of terrorism, as they have many other avenues for political change.
          I’ll raise the point that Cho took a relatively long time to shoot his victims because he had TIME to do so. Nobody had either the means or desire to respond.
          I wonder if — if everyone in the classroom, everyone, had charged Cho, what then?
          How about if one or two had been armed, not necessarily in the room, but within a “response radius”? It isn’t super likely that Cho had full situational awareness, we’ve never seen diagrams showing his tactical positioning in regards to the room.
          Finally, I punched out another number. 1 school shooting, 20 months on average interval since 1982. 132,000 schools, two thirds of which have no cops. But the odds of a school shooting happening then boils down to one in 3,142 lifetimes. Pretty darn small odds to hire police on that basis.
          I haven’t clocked the murder rate yet, so I’ll do that here. 11,000 murders or so with guns, 300 million Americans. You have a 1 in 27,273 chance of getting killed this year with a gun, and can expect to live 372 lifetimes before you get shot. Meaning school is pretty flippin’ safe compared to the world at least in terms of murder.

          • Rob Kailey

            And you thought I was just a ‘gun-grabber’ didn’t you? That would be your failing, Skinner.

            As the 9/11 example teaches, statistical danger has nothing to do with the heavy response of political will. That should be payed due attention.

            • Dave Skinner

              Certainly I wonder sometimes, Rob. Given the stupidity of government responses to so many challenges, and your awareness of same, I still don’t understand why you would compromise on any civil liberty.
              But yep, you’re right again this time. Good luck THERE on focus and due attention on salients, it sure won’t be skill or intellect.

              • Rob Kailey

                Dave, I don’t think the p[problem is nearly so much the stupidity of government response but rather the stupidity of those they are obligated to respond to. The right to keep and bear arms is an established liberty in a nation of laws. The ‘right’ not to be afraid of the liberties of others is not. That should be the focus of the discussion, yet rarely is from either side regarding firearms.

                For myself, I am not scared of guns or the government or even my fellow citizens. I’m concerned that we have no socially productive controls over those who for whatever reason are socially destructive. (That includes those who shouldn’t be driving cars, owning guns and the NRA.)

                • Dave Skinner

                  Yassuh, de ol Bill of Rights, she be a whole body of de freedoms and don’t work good when de parts be amputated.
                  Which is why we are sort of stuck with being reactive. Where do you decide to disenfranchise or de-citizenize (I can’t find the right word for selectively taking rights away) someone who is not all there, but not a proven hazard? Who has not violated the social compact?
                  I haven’t seen Swinestein’s Ban Two the Sequel yet, but I am not about to line up to register my toys under the NFA. I remember what she said back in 1995, if she could have, she would have…I’m not going to make it easy for her, or her ignoramus buddy Carolyn Barrel Shroud McCarthy, to Molon Labe me.

  11. Norma Duffy (@Ilikewoods)

    Let us not forget either that ALEC laws, Castle doctrine Laws were written by NRA. As a long-time ALEC member and co-chair of ALEC’s Public Safety and Elections Task Force, the NRA has crafted dozens of model bills like these, aimed at growing the market for weapons manufacturers at any cost.

    The entirely avoidable deaths of Trayvon and 17-year-old Jordan Russell Davis shined a spotlight on the NRA and ALEC’s reckless push to enact deadly Shoot First laws across the nation. And the mass shootings at Virginia Tech, in Aurora and in Newtown remind us that no community is safe when America has adopted a gun agenda that values corporate profits over human lives.

    Backgrounder: the History of the NRA/ALEC Gun Agenda http://www.prwatch.org/news/2012/12/11908/nraalec-reactionary-gun-agenda

    Black teen’s shooting revives ‘Stand Your Ground’ debate http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/11/28/black-teens-shooting-revives-stand-your-ground-debate/

  12. janis aimee, Olympia WA

    Happy New Year Cowgirl! look forward to another year of the best and most fun political/cultural reporting!