Posted: January 21, 2013 at 7:21 am

Opening Old Wounds

In the wake of the Sandy Hook shooting tragedy, a plethora of bills expanding gun rights in every direction have been introduced in the Montana legislature.  One of these bills could open old wounds for Indian peoples.

House Bill 215 would designate the Winchester Model 1873 the official gun of Montana because, as the bill reads:

the popularity of the Winchester Model 1873 has led it to be credited as “The Gun That Won the West”.

But “Winning the West” means something much different to the people who were here for hundreds of years before men with guns came and rode roughshod over Indian people, ravaged tribal culture, seized land and devalued Indian women.

This bill’s sponsor, Rep. Ed Greef (R-Ravalli) told the Billings Gazette that he had “spoken with” representatives from the legislature’s Indian caucus, but didn’t say in the article whether he’d shown them the specific language of the bill.

Last session, Sen. Shannon Augare led Indian legislators and others in opposing a “Code of the West” bill for similar reasons.

 

61 comments

  1. Richard Miller

    Reading the comments concerning gun control and the possibility of new gun control laws forthcoming, the howl being heard is somewhat akin to the howl you would hear if the between the legs male appendage were to be removed. But be assured that the clowns in the Montana Legislature will protect you. This is just the beginning of some more earth shattering legislation coming out in the next few months.

    • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

      Here’s the problem I have with it, Richard. It’s the world class IRONY of the entire situation! The yammering from the mouths of the know-nothing fernbar crowd. They know who they are. They hate guns. They’ve never served. They’ve never hunted. Hell, some don’t even eat meat! And they feel themselves to be very, very superior indeeVIDGuals as a result! Well, they ain’t.

      So, I must laff my ass off as they relentlessly move Montana farther and farther into red column with every new gun law! For what?!

      In one breath, they’re taking away guns, and in the very NEXT breath, they’re bitchin’ about the Keystone Pipeline!

      DON’T THESE MORONS FRIGGIN’ GET IT?! I guess not, but I’m done with’em. I will never again call myself a Dem. (or Dim) From now on I will register as an Independent. This is frickin’ embarrassing to watch. They are willing to destroy the entire progressive agenda in Montana over guns! It don’t GET any denser than that!

      HEY, emotion is great with one’s first puppy love, but politics is NOT puppy love! No wonder the righties are kickin’ ass! Their opposition is dumb as dog shit too!

      • Rob Kailey

        ~hehehe~ Chill, Larry. We’re Montanans. We don’t have to ‘register’ as anything, independent or otherwise.

        I like your political argument and think it has a very few teeth. The impact is lost, however, because through the last two election cycles, Montana has moved increasingly towards the bat-crap crazy, with no gun control argument at play. The progressive agenda (minus any talk of guns) isn’t playing well in our fine state, so it’s hard for me to imagine how gun control could make things worse.

  2. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    But the ReePubes are missing the boat on this one. The absolute most FAMOUS gun used in Montana is the 1873 Springfield Trapdoor Carbine 45.70. It’s the rifle poor Custer lost his ASS off with. Custer’s troops were outgunned by the Indians who had Winchesters, etc. But Custer’s troops had the single shot Trapdoor with copper cartridges. And when they were fired enough, they would jam in the gun. The troops had no way to extract them except with maybe a pocket knife, a very time consuming process if if worked at all! And when you’ve got thousands of angry hostiles bearing down on your position, this is NOT the most effective method of gettin’ a shell out!

    Of course, if Custer would have had brass cartridges, his defense would have been much more viable. Custer lost his ass for lack of brass! Thus, my first nomination for state gun would be the Springfield Trapdoor. I hope the Native Americans agree.

    But also, I think another candidate should be the 1973 military issue musket carried by Lewis and Clark. For really, ANY dude that shoots a grizz with this gun has BALLS as big as Montana! And not only that, Lewis was SO annoyed by the grizz visits, that he took one day off and declared WAR on the grizz! Fortunately or unfortunately, they found no grizz that day. But I think that this gun truly represents the spirit of Montana. Takin’ on a grizz with a single shot musket takes the cake! Balls BIGGER than Montana!

    How ’bout it, ReePubes? Like my ideas? Yours makes no sense.

  5. Norma Duffy @Ilikewoods

    Since Bobby Kennedy’s Death by Assassination, toll today, over 1 Million people have succumbed to death by gun Violence in America… Soldiers in war throughout the same period about 6500. Sorry Larry, I know your an exception, like others here, but if that have been like erectile dysfunction, they have fixed it by now… Just saying!

    • Craig Moore

      … and if you intend to compare apples to apples, then limit the comparison to homicides. For 2011, according to the CDC there were 11,101 homicides in the US by a firearm. For simplicity, just use 11000 per year X 34 years. Not even close to a million.

      • James Conner

        To my mind, for domestic policy discussions, firearms deaths should include homicides, suicides, and accidents, but exclude combat deaths. The gross multiplier should be 44 years, not 34, but it’s best to add annual sums. I’m still working up my own data, using government statistics, but it looks to me as though the total number of deaths by firearms is in the neighborhood of one million. It’s important, however, to look at rates of death as well as absolute numbers of deaths.

  6. Publius II

    To heck with a small capacity repeater like the venerable steel and wood Winchester, the plastic AR15 Bushmaster should be the gun above all others that’s ‘winning’ race. Really, I grew up with a lever-action Winchester Model 94 on the ranch, and my ‘high-capacity’ magazine was my Levi’s pocket!! When I grew older I was trained in the military on automatic weapons where we learned to respect the lethal nature of those machine-guns and assualt weapons. My preferred hunting weapons are my .270 and double-barrel Sears and Roebuck which do just fine along my .357 ‘wheel gun’…for target shooting, 10 years on rifle teams with .22LR did me just fine and also
    for cheap plinking.

  7. Publius II

    By the way Larry, I own an authentic .45-70 1873 Springfield Trapdoor Rifle, infantry version and was called the ‘Long Tom’ by Native-Americans for its long-range qualities, up to 500 yards with tang sites. The Rifle I would truly propose for Montana would be the single-shot HAWKEN .50 caliber featured in ‘Jeremiah Johnson’ and was the primary firearm that served the Mountain Men and scouts for the incoming settlers. It is indeed an elegant firearm and I own a replica and a great joy to load and fire and a true challenge to hunt with, versus AR15 ‘automatic’ barrages.

    • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

      GUN NUT ALERT! Pubbly mentioned “joy to shoot” and gun in the same sentence! YOU, my friend, are BANNED, BANNED I tell ya from any and all fruit and fern bars from now until eternity! We seen the likes of you before. What you lack is a PENIS!, according to the anti-gun signs displayed at the gun rally crowds! A big, giant, enormous, ginormous, PENIS! You see, Pubbly, if you were anatomically enhanced, you wouldn’t NEED that subsitute penis you call a gun! Jonny WAD din’t need no gun, only his peter! If ya got a goot peter, no NEED for a heater!

      Next time you go to war, may warrior friend, be SURE to simply open your fly, and SCARE the Talibeaners with your Taliwacker! It’s gotta work! The anti crowd assures me it will! (maybe it works for hunting too! or to scare off burlars too! “Halt! I got a loaded peter pointed right at your head!”)

      ‘Course, many in the anti crowd ain’t GOT a penis! So’s how would they really know???

      YOU, my friend, should be considered a CRIMINAL until proven innocent! There is NO joy in shooting! THAT is a pervsion! Seek ye mental help and you shall find! Find OUT that you are a sick, sicko excuse of a human being! Why, you have probably NOT even seen Bowling for Columbine!

      I’m sorry, Pubbly. I have liked you greatly up ’til now. But now, your true character comes out. You are a gun nut, a modern day outlaw!

      p.s. BTW, I too have the BOTH the carbine and infantry models of the 45.70, but mine are the 1884 version. And I LUV my Hawken .50. And you’re right. It’s a much better gun choice than the Winchester .30-30 for state gun. I selected the Custer gun simply because of the unique historical significance. EVERYone in the world knows of Custer’s gubmint overreach. Best American example of instant consequence of gubmint overreach I can think of!

      • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

        CRIMINALS! Ordinary citizens canNOT be trusted with guns! NEVER! For you see, it’s for their own saftey! Don’t worry. The gubmint has everything under control. No need to worry. We’re here to help you. Your gubmint is here to help you. Pull over. We need to make sure your safe. Pull over. No need to worry. Safety first. Turn in your guns. You’re safe now. Pull over. Turn in your arms. Please pull over. Your gubmint is IN control. Pull over. Pull over. Pull over!

        And bend over and kiss your freedoms goodbye!

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9dpUJaFVzg

      • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

        Observations from the anti crowd at the Madison gun rally:

        For Pubbly, and ALL you gun nuts! Myself included!

        John Hamilton

        Guns
        by John Hamilton | January 20, 2013 – 6:34pm
        ——————————————————————————–
        Just as strange were the “leftists” who showed up, the usual suspects, but also much fewer of them than what one would see at “Tea Party” and other “right wing” rallies. There must have been about eight of them, no young people among them. One woman paraded around with a sign that said “Guns do not replace a penis.” I’m no expert on these things, but in my experience this falls under the general category of looking for trouble. Arguments ensued, resolving nothing.”

        See, Pubbly, if ya got a goot peter, you don’t NEEDS a heater!

        • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

          If I remember correctly, Turd Nugget shot his OWN penis off to get outta goin’ to Nam! Hell, he’d never miss it anyways!

          bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahhha!

          Turd Nugget, one of my favorright REEtarded CHICKENhawks. HEY, SOMEbody had to stay home to protect the womens and chillen! Might as well be TURD nugget!

          bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaha!

          • Craig Moore

            Talk about 4-F, Larry, what’s going on with blue collars refusing to serve? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/24/business/union-membership-drops-despite-job-growth.html?_r=0

            Share of the Work Force in a Union Falls to a 97-Year Low, 11.3%

            The long decline in the number of American workers belonging to labor unions accelerated sharply last year, according to data reported on Wednesday, sending the unionization rate to its lowest level in close to a century.

            The Bureau of Labor Statistics said the total number of union members fell by 400,000 last year, to 14.3 million, even though the nation’s overall employment rose by 2.4 million nationwide. The percentage of workers in unions fell to 11.3 percent, down from 11.8 percent in 2011, the bureau found in its annual report on union membership. That brought unionization to its lowest level since 1916, when it was 11.2 percent, according to a study by two Rutgers economists, Leo Troy and Neil Sheflin.

            • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

              Huh? What does that have to do with rocker Turd Nugget, cowardly chickenhawk? Ya lost me on that one.

              • Craig Moore

                Ted Nugget went 4-F when he was 18 years old. Perhaps we all change in 40+ years. Seems pretty clear to me that you 2 are peas in the same pod on 2nd amendment firearm issues. If that is not true, how do you differ? Can’t think of much. Not sure how his draft status had anything to do with 2nd amendment issues in the first place. Ya lost me on that one.

                That being said, I would appreciate your perspective on blue collars going AWOL on union membership. What’s going on?

                • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

                  “Ted Nugget went 4-F when he was 18 years old. Perhaps we all change in 40+ years.”

                  Jesus, craig, you didn’t really just say this, did you? There is NO excuse for guys like Turd Nugget who RAN! Sorry. Hell, we we’re ALL 18, and we didn’t all run! In fact, most of the guys who served in Nam were young, MUCH younger than WWII. Turd Nugget is a chickenhawk. No way to reclaim your honor once you run. And Turd Nugget ran, when EVERYONE I know served!

                    • Lynn

                      Justice SCALIA:

                      “What was at issue in District of Columbia v. Heller?
                      In District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), the Supreme Court heard Second Amendment challenges to Washington, D.C.’s decades-old ban on handgun possession and requirement that firearms in the home be stored unloaded and disassembled or bound by a locking device. In considering the meaning of the Second Amendment for the first time in 70 years, the Court examined whether the Amendment protects an individual right to possess firearms, or only protects firearm possession connected to service in a state militia. In a radical departure from its previous interpretation of the Second Amendment, the Court held that the Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess a firearm in the home for self-defense, and struck down the handgun possession ban as well as the safe storage law (which had no exception for self-defense).

                      The Supreme Court stated, however, that the Second Amendment should not be understood as conferring a “right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” The Court provided examples of laws it considered “presumptively lawful,” including those which:

                      •Prohibit firearm possession by felons and the mentally ill;
                      •Forbid firearm possession in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings; and
                      •Impose conditions on the commercial sale of firearms.
                      The Court noted that this list is not exhaustive, and concluded that the Second Amendment is also consistent with laws banning “dangerous and unusual weapons” not in common use at the time, such as M-16 rifles and other firearms that are most useful in military service. In addition, the Court declared that its analysis should not be read to suggest “the invalidity of laws regulating the storage of firearms to prevent accidents.””

                      http://smartgunlaws.org/understanding-district-of-columbia-v-heller/

                    • Lynn

                      “It includes a grandfather clause that would exempt assault weapons “lawfully possessed” on the date of enactment. Background checks would be required prior to the sale or transfer of weapons exempted under the clause.”

                      “Feinstein emphasized that her bill exempts more than 2,200 hunting and sports rifles or any gun manually operated by bolt, lever or slide action. It also exempts weapons used by active and retired law enforcement officials”

                      http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/279057-feinstein-introduces-sweeping-ban-on-military-style-assault-weapons-

                  • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

                    RARELY, do I agree with Glenda Beck, but on this one I do. He SCHOOLS Turd Nugget. We don’t NEED a “crazy Rosie Odonell” on our side. That’s beautiful. I would only add a crazy Rosie Odonell who is ALSO a chickenhawk! (shit his pants for a couple’a of weeks before his induction physical if I remember correctly, which PROBABLY saved him for shitting them in Nam!) Him and country “singer” Tubby Keith! Tubby must’a went to the lee greenturd (greenwood) musical school of patriotic pandering!

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIFGEVOVVLs

                  • Craig Moore

                    Life is a butterfly’s dream born in the chrysalis that survives the changing seasons. Without forgiveness from a warming heart, it dies without completion.

                    • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

                      Yes, AND, the dude shit himself to get out of going to Nam! Kinda takes the poetry right out of it, don’t it?

                    • Craig Moore

                      Larry, will you forgive Feinstein and per political coven for this witches brew? http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2013/jan/22/miller-national-assault-weapon-ban-coming-thursday/

                      Grandfathering weapons legally possessed on the date of enactment; exempting over 900 specifically-named weapons used for hunting or sporting purposes; and exempting antique, manually-operated, and permanently disabled weapons.

                      Requires that grandfathered weapons be registered under the National Firearms Act, to include: Background check of owner and any transferee; type and serial number of the firearm; positive identification, including photograph and fingerprint; certification from local law enforcement of identity and that possession would not violate State or local law; and dedicated funding for ATF to implement registration.

                    • Craig Moore

                      Kurtz, you focus your attention, on the wrong persons. Unless Democrats like Tester, Reid, and Baucus sign onto Feinstein’s ban bill, it won’t see the light of day in the House.

                    • Craig Moore

                      Kurtz, you are either ignorant on the subject or are choosing to deceive. Her bill will ban the sale, transfer, importation, or manufacture. Even a turkey shotgun with a pistol grip would be banned. Then it treats lawful owners as criminals by requiring they register their firearms, provide fingerprints, and have their picture taken for law enforcement records as if those owners are deviants. All this without stopping the lawless from committing crimes. Kralj has this one exactly right. This bill is suicide for those politicians that don’t think it through, and blindly sign on to it.

                    • larry kurtz

                      Moore: you are either a nimrod or an earth hater. This thing will be amended to high heaven in the House and killed.

                    • Rob Kailey

                      So, lets get the timeline straight so that we know what direction we’re headed. Turner points out to Larry Kralj that his position is supported by the racist National Alliance. Kralj, predictably jumped to the rhetorical position that Turner was calling him a racist. No. Turner was simply pointing out their position of agreement, that the citizenry need guns to oppose an oppressive government. That of course demands the question: Should they ever have to use them for that purpose, would Larry Kralj be satisfied fighting shoulder to shoulder with those who would kill the Jews and blacks in the name of a ‘free’ society? You favor and support Larry Kralj in that position.

                      Now here, you try the same line with the other LK. You point out that he is in cahoots with the pro-life clergy, whom he undoubtedly disagrees with concerning the unrelated topic of abortion. Their agenda is to promote life, both before and after the point of birth. (Leaving aside the observation that that is exactly the point of un-hypocritical positioning that progressives have argued for from the pro-life crowd, let’s move on.) What a monster Kurtz must be, that he would fight to abolish lethal firearms side by side with those who would seek to endorse *life*. Does that put a fine point on your position? Or perhaps you wouldn’t have preferred that …

                    • Craig Moore

                      I don’t think it’s possible to keep a discussion “straight” or on track here as it meanders all over the place. When discussing firearm laws, Kurtz deviates to call me names, so what?, then tears into Ryan, who is Catholic, and attacks him as a pedophile and earth hater, check his punctuation, as reason to take issue with Ryan on 2nd amendment matters and right to life issues as if they are joined at the hip and must move in the same direction. Only 2.6% of firearm deaths are by rifle. Even far less so by those “scary” replicas on Feinstein’s ban list.

                    • Rob Kailey

                      Your first point may well be true, Craig. And you are certainly correct that the vast majority of gun crime is committed using handguns. Semi-automatic handguns. Semi-automatic handguns with the ability to load from large capacity clips. Those, also, are banned from import, sale, manufacture and transfer under the Feinstein proposal. I’m certainly not agreeing with Senator Feinstein on this, but I do think it’s a bit tawdry to focus on a small part of a bill, as if that’s all anyone else can see save you, while denying the efficacy of the larger part.

    • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

      OK, Lynn, you seem to be the best gun control advocate on the forum, so I’ll ask one more time. Just WHAT is the great moral element/priniciple to gun control?

      I submit there is none. The left has their knickers is a terminal knot and they can’t even explain why! The IS no moral element to this crusade! It’s not prohibition. It’s no civil rights. It’s not even civil unions! There is NO great moral purpose to making law abiding citizens into criminals overnight! By fiat! Executive action! Or misguided emotion! What have law abiding gun owners done?

      Have they drunk too much? Have they discriminated against minorities? Have they harassed gays? I simply don’t get it. Law abiding gun owners have done NOTHING, as in NOTHING wrong! So why should they be punished along with the few criminals who perpetrate evil?

      I’m as lefty as they come, but this is just silly. Guns are NOT immoral. Guns are NOT evil. Guns are simply a tool!

      I will part ways with all the great, morally superior lefties until such a time as one of them can coherently and logically explain to me just WHAT the great moral crusade is all about, for you see, that is exactly what this is, a moral crusade SPARKED by moral outrage at nothing at all! Isolated incidents of evil do NOT require changes to the Constitution! Never have, never will.

      This reminds me of the old saying, “let’s do something, even if it’s wrong”! And it reminds me VERY much of America after 9-11. EVERYONE was saying that we HAD to do something, so we committed evil in two unnecessary wars. Gun control is the same thing. Let’s have a legitimate REASON to criminalize law abiding citizens who own guns. What have they done wrong?

      Nothing I would submit. They have killed no one. They have committed no acts of evil. Leave them alone to live with their rights granted by the Second Amendment. We all like to feel superior, especially us lefties. But I can’t share that feeling on this one, for it is wrong. Morally wrong!

  13. Drifter

    Ummmm…okay…I’ll say it. Speaking of Native Americans, the cultural genocide rages unabated.