Posted: January 6, 2014 at 10:44 pm

You Can Run from the Wingnuts, But You Really Can’t Hide

Sen. Jennifer Fielder R-TEA Noxon
Sen. Jennifer Fielder R-TEA Noxon

The vice-Chair of the state Republican Party, Sen. Jennifer Fielder  promoted the gathering of an extreme anti-government group appeared as a keynote speaker at the group’s event. But when a reporter showed up, “she quickly distanced herself from [Defend Rural America leader Kirk] MacKenzie when asked about his extreme rhetoric and ideas,” which included that “neo-environmentalists” are “domestic terrorists.”  Fielder said that the group ideas weren’t what she thought they would be.

So now she knows, and there’s no longer a way to claim ignorance.

But Sen. Fielder must not be too upset about the group’s views. She’s invited yet another Defend Rural America speaker, Doyel Shamley, to present information to a legislative hearing this Wed, Jan 8. You can see that he appears under Fielder’s portion of the Environmental Quality Council agenda.

Shamley provided training and workshops for Defend Rural America’s secessionist county organizing drive in California.  He ran one of the Defend Rural America’s pilot projects, featured in this DFA white paper.

Shamley appears on the MT EQC agenda, billed as a “natural resource consultant.”  But Doyel Shamely is so much more.

Shamely is the host of a somewhat creepy conspiracy theory program which posits that politicians, lawmakers, members of the royal family, the illuminati and others have created a “New World Order” through which they attempt to control the thoughts and beliefs of everyday people–of course, there is connection to UFO’s and aliens visiting planet Earth.

His audio book, New World Order: The Battle for Your Mind and the Truth to the UFOs, is available for $10.95 at Amazon.com, but for some reason has no customer reviews.

Is there a New World Order? Are they trying to control every part of our lives? Are we treated like sheep?…Are they politicians, company directors, religious leaders, royalty, lawmakers, or all of the above and more? How old is their rule? And what secret organization do they belong to?

Perhaps more importantly, are UFOs actually visiting our planet? Have they been here for thousands of years? All this and more is constantly investigated by thousands of people around the globe and nobody more than the Hour of Our Time Show*[hosted by Shamely]…Are they trying to control our minds? Are they lying about the Alien Threat? You decide.

Indeed Fielder has decided that Montana’s lawmakers need to hear from this consultant–apparently no other natural resources speaker would do.

Yes, the truth sometimes has a way of coming out, but that hasn’t stopped Fielder from tried hide from and disassociate herself from the extremist views of these “expert consultants” she consorts with.

For example, Sen. Dick Barrett (D-Missoula) provided her with an email with information about the watershed consultant hired by TEA partiers to block a tribal water rights agreement negotiated by the state of Montana and the CSKT.  Kate Vandemoer (yes, this is the Usurpathoner) has a birther blog with some pretty extreme, marginal views–and some writings that reflect the soundness of her judgement.  But Fielder got angry and insisted that the contents of Vandemoer’s “personal” blog (whatever that might mean) were not relevant.  But in the same breath, she claimed that she had never read the blog.  I encourage you to read this informative chain of emails below the fold.

The most cursory review of Vandemoer’s very public blog (Dr Kate’s View) shows that Vandemoer uses it not only to promote her multitudinous and bizarre birther conspiracy theories, she also uses it to share her views on water and watershed politics.

In a post entitled “Watershed Politics” Vandemoer writes the following. (Apologies for the long passage but they illustrate this “expert’s” state of mind.)

the landscape of our America was shaped by our Constitution, the very blood and water of our country…Upon this hallowed ground–nothing more than a chessboard to some– a dark rain has fallen for decades…it is falling and now drenching.  I remember being in the wilderness for weeks on horseback, wondering what the black ‘goo’ was on the vegetation and the rocks…This foreign rain, and the raging torrents it produces, are attempting to capture that stream and dream known as America.  It is trying to erode our landscape, our system, in order to capture liberty and train it into a controlled system of slavery, where the course of everyone’s life is determined by a single train of thought–communism, new world orderism.  The NWO has intentionally created these devastating torrents to undermine sovereignty, liberty, and freedom…indeed I have felt that the very foundation of our country is threatened…and with increasing force.

Does the NWO think it is God, such that it can flood the world with poison rain and torrential rivers to destroy all of creation, and refashion it to its liking (and control)?

She uses the blog to share her belief that climate change is a diversionary tactic to keep the public from looking into a list of conspiracy theories: such as “weather modification by geoengineering“–Vandemoer believes the government is creating natural disasters so that it may “take over our lives.”  There’s also HAARP (a secret weapon conspiracy nuts think is used for weather modification. And don’t forget “chemtrails, and microwave pulses.”

So even if Fielder doesn’t scramble to distance herself from the conspiracies, or Vandemoer’s belief that, “the Rothschilds (translated ‘Red Shield), Rockefellers, and many other monied JKhazar Jews, who together form a cabal acting like a synagogue of Satan that is in full gear enforcing its agenda on America, including Agenda 21.”  Even if Sen. Fielder does not believe that these views call “Dr. Kate’s” judgement into question, Vandemoer’s views on water as a water consultant should give any sane person pause.

For tomorrow’s legislative meeting. Fielder has invited another extremist to town.  She’s asked Ken Ivory to the legislative committee tomorrow.  Ivory is the Utah legislator who carried a bill requiring the Federal government to cede much of its land in Utah to the state.

This guy Ivory has already appeared in Ravalli County.  Actually, he’s been touring around pushing this idea to other states at ALEC conferences too–legislative language is conveniently available now in ALEC boilerplate. Montanans will remember this idea as one of the infamous nutjob bills of the 2011 legislature, sponsored by Derek Skees.

Unfortunately for Ivory (and ALEC), Utah’s Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel had to go and point out a pile of pesky case law with regard to public lands going back to the 1870s that gives the bill “a high probability of being declared unconstitutional.” And the Salt Lake Tribune has called Ivory’s effort “tilting at windmills.” Arizona rejected it.  The bill was vetoed by TEA Party Governor Jan Brewer. In Montana, the bill didn’t even make it out of committee.

But the GOP loves to throw these kinds of pointless proposals out there, in spite of the fact that it is a complete waste of public resources to do so.  It’s political grandstanding to rally the extreme-right conservative TEA Party base and to feed their antigovernment conspiracy narrative.

Tomorrow, we’re the one’s paying for it.

Email exchange between Sen. Dick Barrett, Sen. Jennifer Fielder, and Sen. Verdell Jackson and several others on a group list:

On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Dick Barrett <rnewbar@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Senator Jackson:

I read your recent email with interest and frankly, with some alarm. I offer the following two comments:

1. The document which you describe as an “alternative compact” is no such thing. As you should be aware, a compact is “an agreement, understanding or covenant between two or more parties” (Webster’s Third International Dictionary). The document which you (and I believe Reps. Regier and O’Neil) have put forward is not such an agreement. It was drafted without negotiation with the Tribes, it will never be accepted by the Tribes, and it cannot be unilaterally imposed on them. As such, it would be utterly futile to bring this “alternative compact” before the legislature. To give it any consideration at all is, frankly, a waste of time.

2. Your description of Dr. Catherine Vandemoer, who drafted the documents you are distributing, suggests that she is an expert in issues pertinent to the compact. That may be true, but it is also important to recognize that she is a political activist with what I believe are extreme and marginal views. I believe these views reflect on the soundness of her judgments, but that is something which you and others might want to decide for yourselves by referring to her blog at  http://drkatesview.wordpress.com/.

 

Dick Barrett

***

On Jul 27, 2013 1:39 PM, “Jennifer Fielder” <sen.jfielder@legmt.gov> wrote:

Senator Barrett,

Thank you for acknowledging Dr. Catherine Vandermoer’s expertise in issues pertinent to the CSKT water compact. I have reviewed her resume, listened to her presentation of the alternative compact, and read her critical analysis of the CSKT compact (both documents are attached FYI).

I very much agree Dr. Vandermoer offers highly credible expertise in this matter and I am grateful Senator Jackson, Dr. Vandermoer, Rep Regier, and other legislators and citizens have taken the time to study the compact and bring these immensely critical issues to the attention of policy makers.

It is my understanding the “alternative compact” was put forth to offer solutions after members of the Commission asked opponents of the compact “what their solution is”.

Now, after having had time to actually study the compact, I am greatly relieved the majority of our colleagues did not make the grave mistake of ratifying this permanent contract as it was presented during the 2013 session. The only responsible thing to do with a decision of this magnitude is to give it the thorough analysis and very careful consideration warranted.  Hopefully the major issues raised will be earnestly resolved by the Compact Commission so that we may arrive at a workable agreement for the benefit of all Montanans.

The concise analysis in Dr. Vandermoer’s “critical review” and “alternative compact” (both attached) has been very helpful to me in understanding the major points of contention that caused the compact to fail. I encourage all legislators to review these brief attachments and compare excerpts to the failed compact.

Attempts to discount a person of Dr. Vandermoer’s expertise simply because her personal political views differ from that of your own seems to be a bit off topic. Finally, if a blog is to be referenced, those wishing to stick to the issue at hand should be referred to the relevant blog concerning Dr. Vandermoer’s work which actually addresses the water compact at: http://westernmtwaterrights.wordpress.com/water-rights-library/

Of course your opinion is your own, but I find it in very poor judgement that members and/or staff of the Compact Commission used an official state web site to highlight a citizen’s personal opinion blog on an unrelated topic, seemingly to to discredit her comments about the compact. This and other actions of the current Compact Commission have raised serious questions as to the integrity of this group and it’s entire work product.

 Jennifer

Senator Jennifer Fielder

Montana State Senate – District 7

mailing address: P.O. Box 2558, Thompson Falls, MT 59873

 ***

On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Dick Barrett <rnewbar@gmail.com> wrote:

Sen. Fielder:

To address your final point first: I am unaware of any commission members or staff making use of an official state website to highlight a citizen’s personal opinion blog. I received Sen. Jackson’s email at my personal email address as, I assume, a member of the Senate. I responded  as such using my personal email. If you have something else in mind, by all means make it known. And until you can do so, please refrain from remarks questioning the commission’s integrity.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but in saying that Sen. Jackson may be right in suggesting that Dr. Vandemoer is an expert in matters pertinent to the compact, I was not endorsing her expertise nor her analysis, which I think is seriously flawed.  I’m glad you found it helpful; I did not.

The commission has asked interested parties to share their questions and concerns about the compact, so that they can be addressed in a report to WPIC. It did not ask for the drafting of an alternative compact. As I tried to make clear before, any altered or new compact language, if there is to any, which is not likely, must be negotiated with the Tribes.

As I said in my previous email, I believe Dr. Vandermoer’s political views are extreme and reflect badly on her judgement.  But I acknowledged that not everyone would see it that way and invited them to refer to her blog themselves. You are apparently more comfortable with her views and judgement than I am. So be it.  I think our colleagues in the Senate should, in the interests of full disclosure, at least be told that Dr. Vandemoer is a political activist and not just a neutral technical expert. What they make of that information is up to them.

Dick Barrett

 ***

Jennifer Fielder wrote:

Sen Dick Barrett,

I only question the integrity of the Compact Commission after observing significant breeches of trust, some of which are documented on the official public record. The fact that certain Commission staff and members, including yourself, have been broadcasting a link to a completely unrelated citizen’s personal blog in an apparent effort to discount her expertise on water related issues is yet another indication of questionable conduct by commission staff and members.

Instead of referring to issues related to the compact, you have responded twice now by pointing to this irrelevant personal blog of a citizen. First by attempting to cast doubt on Dr, Vandemoer’s professional expertise, then by jumping to the conclusion I must be “comfortable” with the content of her personal blog — which FYI — I have not even read.

Your actions indicate you are either ignoring, or deliberately attempting to divert attention away from, substantive issues — i.e. the portions of the treaty, federal law, court decisions, water quantification, and new definitions that Concerned Citizens for Western Montana, with the assistance of Dr. Vandermoer, have highlighted in their official comments to the Commission (again, attached FYI).

Although you may have used your personal email account to promulgate Dr. Vandermoer’s personal blog, the Commission staff did not. In fact, I first learned about about the existence of the blog called Dr Kate’s View when a link to it appeared in the footnote of an official Compact Commission document on the state web site after she submitted technical comments about the compact. The next and only other time I heard about this citizens’ personal blog was from you, a Compact Commission member. Both times, language was used to cast doubt on her professional expertise due to her personal political views. What a coincidence.

If, by any chance, you could bring yourself to read CCWM’s analysis of the compact without prejudice, to actually hear and try to understand the concerns of citizens in the affected area, perhaps you could aid the commission in developing an acceptable compact. How refreshing that would be.

Again, I attach theses fairly concise and relevant documents for your thoughtful consideration, as well as that of any colleagues who wish to pinpoint areas of great concern regarding the CSKT compact.

Thank you,

Jennifer

Senator Jennifer Fielder

Montana State Senate – District 7

mailing address: P.O. Box 2558, Thompson Falls, MT 59873

78 comments

  1. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Well, as I’ve been saying for a long time now, it’s simply FULL FRONTAL FREE STATE PROJECT now! Yes, the ReePubes have been laying the groundwork for this for a looong time now. The nazzis have desperately been seeking a state of low population to basically take over and turn into their so called “free state”, one that tests all their secessionist, racist, libertarian, nazzi theories! We are kind of the Arizona del Norte, only worse! And the entire Pube party in this state has been taken over by the nutjobs! Hell, even sen. booby brown, a guy that most Montanans considered to be a moderate old time Pubbie, wrote that awful editorial recently praising Dipshit Daines in glowing terms for shutting down the gummint! When even sen. booby brown jumps on the crazy train, you just KNOW it’s game over for the old Republican Party in Montana!

    But as I mentioned, the Pubes have been heading in this direction for a loooong time now. The messages were subtle at first, and then not so subtle. For YEARS now, the Pubes have been sending the message to the rest of the country with their goofy proposed bills, that Montana is open for business, the NAZI business! Militia bills, gun bills, secession bills, religeeous wacko bills, EVERY kind of bullshit bill they could think of! And then, they buttressed that approach with some really nasty characters to make the most outrageous public comments, both legislators and their guests! ie. birther bob, and pastor hairass slimes! (is he still in jail?)

    The whole shiteree is designed to bring even MORE inbreds into Montana to tip the balance and swing us to the dark side! And it’s working. Look at Pastord Tiny Tim Bulbdim! He brought his entire flock of flockers here! They have NOTHING but the proceeds from the sale of the mobile homes and their Buybulls and guns, and their belief that they’re just gonna reach up and grab a handful of grapes offn’ a tree and EAT it! It’s a veritable Grapes of Crap!

    But that is where we’re at, folks. It’s all by design. They want to make Montana a sundown state! No darkies, Indians, minoriteees, or non-fundiwackmentalist xsitians need apply!

    And the really odd thing is that MOST of these legislators are from outta state, coming here in the belief that they have been inspired by GAWD! Fiddler I believe is from Californyeeha! And birther bob, Colorado, etc. These morons are on a mission, a mission from GAWD! They’re kinda like them scientists who are saving seeds in the event of a huge disaster to the earth so that they can then bring back the flora. THESE inbreds are the last bastion of weirdos in this country, waiting for the time that they can bring back America to its glorious godly past! It’s all very weird.

    p.s. I must give a shout out to Lizard, a guy I argue with a lot. He has written a good post on Schweitzer. It’s a good read.

    http://4and20blackbirds.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/the-brian-schweitzer-show/

  2. Matthew Koehler

    Good solid post, thanks for putting it all together.

    This weekend, while waiting for the Packer game to air on TV I stumbled across a public channel which featured Sen Fielder’s SJR 15, Public Lands Management phone meeting. The ignorance on display regarding forest ecology and public lands management was truly impressive and comical. Anyone who thinks that public lands management would be better off with politicians taking a more active roll in prescribing, or mandating, certain resource extractive activities on our public lands really hasn’t been paying too much attention to what’s been happening in this regard ever since the Sagebrush Rebellion.

    ID had a similar post about MacKenzie’s recent Flathead visit and “domestic terrorist” comments directed at environmentalists. Let’s not forget that the dark-monied Western Tradition Partnership turned American Tradition Partnership (ATP) bills itself as “no-compromise grassroots organization dedicated to fighting the radical environmentalist agenda.”

    Of course, it doesn’t help our movement or progressive public lands policies that some Dem politicians in this state also claim to be fighting the radical environmentalists. “Extremists are extremists and I don’t really care,” right Senator Tester?

    Over at ID Don made a good observation/suggestion that except for the Missoula Indy, the Montana media has completely ignored these Sagebrush Rebellion-type meetings in the Flathead and Bitterroot. As I mentioned over there in the comments section, I’d like for the Montana press to take it a step or two further and get leaders of Montana’s resource extraction/exploitation industries on record as well.

    Most everyone in the timber industry (including the Tester logging bill collaborators and Montana Wilderness Association’s ‘timber partners’), oil & gas/fracking, hardrock mining and coal mining industries have publicly expressed very similar sentiments supporting local management of federal public lands and opposition to not only Endangered Species Act (ESA) protections for imperiled species, but to the very Act itself.

    You can toss the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) into that list of agencies and regulations largely opposed by Montana’s resource extraction/exploitation industries, as well as the provisions of bedrock environmental laws such as the National Environmental Policy Act, (NEPA), Clean Water Act, Clean Air Act, etc.

    Yet, in this context, some people honestly think it’s best to partner up and ‘collaborate’ with these same resource extraction industries by having politicians mandate increases in resource extraction from public lands and less oversight and regulation from the laws and public agencies established to protect land, air, water, wildlife habitat, public health and public participation.

    • larry kurtz

      Right, Matt: like the GOP will be better stewards of public lands than Democrats are. gafg.

          • larry kurtz

            Montanans have worked together to create and support the FJRA for nearly a decade. We’ve done our part. So has Sen. Tester, as the sponsor for this bill. With all due respect, it’s time for Rep. Daines to do his part, too. — Clare Menahan, 40 Olive St., Helena

            Montana Standard

            • In2it

              That’s a crock, Larry, which you should well know by this time given all of the back and forth that has gone on since 2007. That none of it has affected your outlook merely makes you a partisan, and not a thinking citizen.

              The “Montanans” that gave us FJRA are indsutry hacks and collaborators, most of the latter on the Pew Trust payroll, an oil industry legacy group. No environmentalists were included in formulating that bill.

              There is no such thing as a Montanan in these battles – that is, there is no “Montanan” point of view. There are interested citizens of all stripes, some included but most excluded from the process that brought about Tester’s bill, put together in a back room. When the deal is done, when the sellout is complete, we’re all Montanans they say, and need to pull together. Horseshit!

                • in2it

                  Just curious: were you in favor or opposed to this legislation when Conrad burns pushed it?

              • Montana Mom

                Yes, there were environmentalist/conservationist community members involved in the formation of FJRC. If you would like their names and organizations, I will track them down for you. I will watch the comments fo the next few days, if you wish to have that conversation.

                • in2it

                  We already know their names! Where have you been? This is the problem with Democrats – your guy is in office, so you are sound asleep.

                  The collaborators are, to name three, Montana Wilderness Association, Trout Unlimited, and National Wildlife Federation. They have in common massive funding from Pew Charitable Trusts, an oil legacy foundation (Sinclair). This gives the appearance of support from environmentalists, but real environmentalists were shut out of he process.

                  Tester was in his uncloaking phase – having won election as a progressive, he quickly reintroduced legislation long pushed by Conrad Burns, but under a new name, FJRA. He labeled environmentalists who had long fought Burns as “extremists,” thereby losing progressive support. This was why he needed a huge infusion of dark money to get reflected with < 50% of the vote. He pissed on his base.

                  Apparently you, MM, like all Democrats, are asleep at the wheel. This has been raging on around you for years, and you are unaware.

                • Matthew Koehler

                  Hello Mom:

                  The following is from John S. Adam’s in-depth, investigative look at Senator Tester’s mandated logging bill, the Forest Jobs and Recreation Act:

                  “[T]he core of the FJRA proposal sprang from a series of private meetings that began in 2005 between Sun Mountain Lumber, Roseburg Forest Products, Pryamid Mountain Lumber, RY Timber, Smurfit Stone, Montana Wilderness Association, National Wildlife Federation and Montana Trout Unlimited.”

                  Please give Adams’ article a full read at: http://www.greatfallstribune.com/article/20131214/NEWS01/312140020/Collaboration-conundrum-Wilderness-advocates-sharply-divided-consensus-proposals

                  The other day a college student from Montana State University, who happens to be the secretary of the Montana Wilderness Association’s student group, wrote a scripted pro-logging bill letter to the editor in the Missoulian. Of course, the letter writer didn’t ID their association with MWA’s student group, but anyone with google can figure it out. Anyway, the canned letter remarkably claimed:

                  “There are no powerful interests or well-heeled lobbyists involved with the FJRA.”

                  Say what? Has there ever been a more untruthful thing written about Tester’s mandated logging bill?

                  Fact is, the Montana Wilderness Association has received more than $1 million from out-of-state foundations to run their pro-FJRA campaign, including all the paid media, internal polling and focus groups, one-sided dog-n-pony shows and lobbying trips to Washington DC.

                  Heck, the Montana Wilderness Association even got more than $300,000 from the Philly-based Pew Foundation to act as Pew’s independent contractor! That’s right everyone….MWA is an “independent contractor” of the Philadelphia-based Pew Trusts. Verify all these facts for yourself by looking at 990 over at guidestar.com.

                  The rest of the conservation groups supporting FJRA (and there are only a handfull) include the National Wildlife Federation (income of $84 million), Trout Unlimited (income of $34 million) and The Wilderness Society (income of $25 million). Again, all of this information can be verified by reviewing 990 reports available at guidestar.com.

                  So, as you can see the very notion that “there are no powerful interests or well-heeled lobbyists involved with the FJRA” is not only laughable, but also a BIG LIE!

                  Meanwhile, over 50 forest and wilderness organizations around the country – including the Sierra Club, Defenders of Wildlife, WildEarth Guardians, NRDC, Center for Biological Diversity, PEER (Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility) – either oppose, or have expressed serious concerns with, Senator Tester’s mandated logging bill, S 37 the Forest Jobs and Recreation Act.

                  • In2it

                    Tester used the groups for political cover, and with Democrats, it works. With Republicans, because it is Tester and supposed “environment” groups, there is discomfort. None have familiarized themselves with the underlying bill.

                    Those are the sad facts.

                    • larry kurtz

                      Regardless of the success of FJRA expect lawsuits: no amount of compromise will derail the sue and settle cycle.

                    • Matthew Koehler

                      Yes, Larry Kurtz….if the Forest Service continues a long pattern of failing to following it’s own rules/regulations, best science, etc when planning industrial logging projects on public lands that include endangered species, old-growth forests, fragile soils, critical important watersheds, etc you can expect lawsuits will follow. What else should citizens of the United States do when the federal government fails to follow it’s own rules/regulations/promises?

                      And, BTW, since Tester’s bill mandates large increases in logging on the Beaverhead-Deerlodge and Kootenai National Forests you can expect that the Forest Service will need to use more short-cuts than normal during the NEPA process to keep up with the annual mandated logging requirements in Tester’s bill.

                      Here are some other specifics to consider in regards to the mandate in Tester’s FJRA that the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest MUST log a MINIMUM of 5,000 acres per year for 15 years total.

                      The average acres logged per year for the Beaverhead and Deerlodge forests combined from 1954 to 1996 was 3,213 acres/year. Even during the logging haydays of the Reagan Administration during the 1980s the average acres logged per year on Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest was 4,613 acres/year. Again, Tester’s bill mandates a MINIMUM of 5,000 acres a year.

                      The most acreage ever logged in a single year on the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest was in 1971, when 7,013 acres were logged. The next highest total was in 1966 at 5,813 acres. These years were also prior to our nation having environmental laws such as the National Environmental Policy Act and the National Forest Management Act.

                      Remember, Sen Tester’s bill would Congressionally mandate a MINIMUM of 5,000 acres of logging per year for 15 years on the BHDL NF. Also keep in mind, that even if Tester’s mandated logging bill passes, the Beaverhead Deerlodge National Forest would still be logging even more acres out of it’s normal timber sale program, so the amount of logging on the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest would very likely be higher than at any point in history.

                      How the Forest Service pays for all this extra mandated logging that MUST be completed if Tester’s bill passes is a real mystery and a real concern that we’ve spoken out about for 5 years. Tester’s bill doesn’t provide the Beaverhead Deerlodge or Kootenai National Forest with any extra money in their budget to do all this extra logging so again, one very real possibility is that we’ll end up with the Forest Service cutting more corners and putting out crappy timber sales.

                      Sure, I can see why some political supports of Tester, or the Dem Party, don’t concern themselves with such specifics, but those of us who work on public lands policy and management issues every day certainly do. And thank goodness for that.

                    • larry kurtz

                      You know were I am on this: the FS should come out of the USDA. The Belts are mess so is the Custer, Helena and numerous other watersheds on public land. Just try to get the kinds of changes on the Forest that the majority of Democrats want to see. Incrementalism, baby steps are the only realistic approaches to getting legislation through the scary US House.

                    • in2it

                      That is too general, too vague to be useful, like “control the federal bench.” You were cornered on Tester’s FJRA and so fell back on a generic reply as an escape hatch. How about opposing Tester, even though he is a Democrat, in his attempt to solve the roadless issue in favor or loggers?

                    • Matthew Koehler

                      I have to agree with in2it. Larry: When you are pressed with some of the actual facts and specifics of Tester’s mandated logging bill your generic replies really don’t address any substance.

                  • larry kurtz

                    You answered your own question, Mark. I’d like to see similar legislation for my own pathetic home state: a million acres of wilderness to a hundred thousand for logging works for me.

                    • larry kurtz

                      Senate deals are nothing new:

                      Now what’s a bit obscure and confusing is the Daschle amendment, which successfully mandate a quid pro quo kind of deal. Section 706 a) authorized specific projects in and adjacent to Beaver Park, b) authorized two sales in Norbeck, and c) designated an addition to the Black Elk Wilderness. That was the extent of the projects, and all of the authorized on-the-ground work was completed by September 2003. The success of the Black Hills today is not due to “evading environmental laws” through the Daschle amendment. It seems to be due to a lack of interest or success by serial litigators,..correlation or causation?

                      For some reason the link to your forest policy site can’t get thru Cowgirl’s spam box.

                    • In2it

                      Larry, Montana has an inventory of six million roadless acres. For decades the timber industry has had a non-compromising stance which they have pushed via Burns and Baucus, and now Tester in the senate. They are willing to let a million of those acres go, as they are not considered lucrative enough to warrant interest in large logging operations. This is the “Rocks and Ice” approach. Whenever a serious wilderness proposal would come forth in the past, as Pat Williams’ last bill before leaving the House, Baucus would roll out his “rocks and ice” bill, and guard the door saying “this, or nothing.”

                      That is their idea of a compromise – to give up what they don’t want anyway.

                      (Serious, or non-bought) environmental groups have countered with specific proposals for Wilderness, from piecemeal, like the Pryor Mountain area, to large scale, as with NREPA. Part of industry propaganda has been designed to marginalize those environmentalists, like Mathew, who are effective in promoting their cause. Consequently, when Matt testified against Tester’s bill, Jon got short-tempered, dismissive and intolerant and called opponents extremists. This was new talk from the supposed progressive who unseated Burns. I call it his uncloaking. He, like Burns, was in industry’s pocket.

                      It is not extreme to fight for what you believe in. If compromise is necessary, it should come after the battle, and not before, as the collaborators who worked with Tester on FJRA did. But the word “compromise” has been corrupted too, as the industry, which will not compromise in its demands, has used its media access and ownership of elected representatives to brand the environmentalists who fight back as the non-compromising agents in the dispute.

                    • larry kurtz

                      Mark, the Colorado legislature is hearing testimony on wildfire suppression costs as I type this.

                    • larry kurtz

                      These are not ‘natural’ forests: they are anthropogenic tree farms where a century of fire suppression makes them more threats than assets. Roads are the only way to get to most of this timber with diesel-powered equipment: until aerial logging comes to the US that is the cost of protecting the stupid humans that build in or near the woods.

                    • In2it

                      Completely off-subject. Wildfire suppression in the urban interface has nothing to do with this debate.

                      The logging industry has also spread the notion that they are some kind of fire prevention agency. Not true. Forest fires of the kind we have seen are caused by low moisture content in trees, drought, early runoff and climate change in general. Logged as well as wild areas burn, and additional roads and logging will not ameliorate the problem. That’s nothign but an industry bullet point.

          • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

            Had a chat (argument) with my Tea Party/Libertarian relatives out in Oregon last week. The big push now is to do away with public lands altogether. The whole idea that something is held in common for the common good is commonuism! Everything must be owned! And we all know what happens to the Tragedy of the Commons. You see, if the Kockh brothers owned everything, they would care for it as their own! Kochkuism vs. commonuism! You decide. They already have!

  3. Dave Skinner

    If you don’t like the message, kill the messenger.
    It seems that Vandermoer is a competent hydrologist. And it’s pretty clear the Compact is first and foremost a political document, written by mostly Democrats and Indians as a political gambit by the Democrats to secure the “Indian bloc” vote for all time in Montana.
    As for the defederalization of federal public lands, the fact remains that management under federal oversight is a stone loser, completely dysfunctional, while in contrast, state and tribal management is much better balanced both environmentally and fiscally.
    The bottom line is, even people with strange political views can be objectively correct on certain topics. I mean, even Democrats are right once in a great while. NSA frinstance?

    • Norma Duffy

      NSA was expanded under Bush Dave not the Dems, Clinton, or Obama. Almost everything Planning wise was paid for and done in Bushes eight years of Office. Again get your version of events back on track with the reality!

      • In2it

        Reality: Elections in 2000, 04, 08, 12 and in between, and no amount of partisan wrangling at the ballot box had any impact on public policy.

        In other words, elections do not matter.

    • Mike

      Nothing like throwing out platitudes when you have no other argument-what evidence do you have of competence? That she’s a Birther with mental issues?

      • Rob Kailey

        Competence: Maybe she has a wall full of junior college certifications and pictures of herself with celebrities? Hey, just asking here …

        • Mike

          I understand the University of Phoenix has an excellent online hydrology program you can get using your own bath water.

  4. Norma Duffy

    In our SW area alone like I have said before, in Madison and Beaverhead County. there are already 600 abandoned mines leaching crap and Poisons into our land and waters, on public land that hasn’t been cleaned up. State environmentalists have considered it a problem for years, and the GOP has continually ignored and refused to grant funds to clean it up….. yet they always looking to poison us more with more mining, more slag piles?

    Do they not realize we need to clean up after us first? The dangers already posed are sickening our forests, watersheds, and delicate alpine meadows and they want to commit more atrocities to the land, wildlife and people?

    And the Jobs created, should they really decide to better our forests, if they really wanted to do the right thing would go on for years in reclamation and replanting. shielding or replacing high power lines that cross our rivers, digging up and replacing old oil pipes, and replacing them with higher standards piping– all guarding against future leaks and poisoning. I watched other states do it, why cant we?

    Not to mention making Montana a safer place for tourism and hunting, which is still one of the biggest monied backbones of our state? These RW assholes Don’t see the human destruction they are doing to our countryside, all to sell minerals to a country like china, that builds weapons and spies on us every day????? how are we gonna protect ourselves from countries like this, who have historical records of human rights Violations, if we become exactly like them in treating the land and people with little or no regard.

    Let alone protecting our agriculture, which is finding itself fighting alone against big mining interests in eastern MOntana now. Steve Daines wants to make sure poor ranchers and farmers have no legal recourses, voting already in congress to take there rights away. The cattle poisoned by dirty water, and less and less places to graze every day, endangering Families 100 year old investments and a way of life, vital to our state’s well- being?

    Are these Right wingers all that stupid that they don’t see they are being used as Pawns by big business to destroy the last great place to live?? are they so willing to turn the big bright blue sky grey with pollution?

    These RW people have become dumb as the toxic dirt around us they churn around us!

    • Publius II

      Putting the ‘Sham’ guy on par with the other speakers lik John Tubbs, DNRC director, is ridiculous, but that’s par for the course, maybe we’ll learn more about UFO invasions of Montana hinterlands, and maybe even
      explore Alien abductions of teabagger legislators, who return ‘changed’….

  5. Jan Thomas

    Fielder’s obfuscation here is giving me whiplash.

    First she says “Vandermoer offers highly credible expertise” and that her blog is irrelevant. Then she’s offended that the water compact commission staff say it is relevant, but how would she know whether it is or is not if she hasn’t read it, and if she hasn’t read it, why is it so offensive to her that it’s been referenced.

    I’m definitely watching this tomorrow afternoon.

  6. Jan Thomas

    And even someone with the intellect of a small child can see that when a giant racist is called in to block a tribal sovereignty issue that unbiased science will not be the only product. COME ON JENNIFER, THE GIG IS UP.

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  10. James Conner

    It would be nice if everyone would stay on topic and stop exchanging insults. The lack of restraint of some commenters is turning this thread into a cesspool.

    • Rob Kailey

      James, many folk already understand that this website, and not just this thread, has become a “cesspool”. The Cowgirl site has much to offer. The inside knowledge is well known, and should be promoted. BUT, there are those who think they own this site and they can use it as a toilet. There are others of us who say “if you can piss here then I can too”. The only real discussion that’s been going here for some time is ‘who is allowed to use the toidey, and who the bullies can give a swirley’.

    • Pogie

      I’m inching closer to not having comments on my site, actually. The idea that I need to police fights like the ones here and at my site make them hardly worth keeping.

      I’m not sure what to do, but what’s happening now sure isn’t working.

      • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

        Identify the perps, (there’s really only one), and ban him! It’s easy. Folks don’t like each other. That’s fine. But for God’s sake take it outside! Endless tit for tat destroys a site. What immaturity! When debate becomes that personal, it’s time for a time out. I think everyone can agree to that. Hell, I’ve been banned enough to know that. But you see, I go after the bad guys, NOT other lefties. Sumthin’ real weird about that. I don’t understand it at all.

      • Cowgirl

        Ugh, the thought of having to moderate comments is unbearable. I think though that the only solution will be to simply delete any and all comments that contain an attack on another commenter–even if the comment contains something else substantive. I’m so dreading it, what a waste of time that could be better spent doing almost anything else.

        • Craig Moore

          Cowgirl, stop and consider that you set the toxic tone with the pejorative quality of disrespecting people you wish to publicly humiliate with your posts. People follow that example and apply it to each other. Perhaps a different approach would produce more fruitful repartee. As to what I mean read James’ Flathead Memo.

          • Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

            Oh bull LONEY, craig. This is a lefty site. That’s what we do, we make FUN of rightwing wackos, for they deserve it. But we as lefties need to hold our fire on other lefties, that’s all. I save my venom for your crowd!

            • Craig Moore

              Don’t know how you can claim that given your attack on Rob. Now as to your venom, it is a poor substitute for exercising insightful intelligence. Again, I refer you to the Flathead Memo. James is as lefty as any of you but doesn’t resort to buffoonery and name calling to make his points.

  11. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    AT LAST! I have a whole lot of critics who accuse me of drinking. And well, yes, I’M GUILTY! But you see, I was raised Catholic! ALL mackerel snappers drink! It’s what we do! Raised on massive guilt and sin, the ONLY option left for us was drinking! And thank GOD the church didn’t outlaw that! Hell, you even got some wine in church! Not a lot mind you, but at least we got some! And I postulate if NOT for booze, there would be NO Catholic Church left! For you see, Catholics are NOT Mormons! When we sin, we admit it! In confession! Which is one of the most intimidating things you can do! Hence, to work up the courage, we get a snootful! Afterwards of course.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dan-miles/ten-inspiring-things-alco_b_4542285.html?utm_hp_ref=comedy&ir=Comedy

  12. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Cowgirl, please ban these gratuitous attacks on other posters. I think it’s time. This is ridiculous. Why can’t people express their opinions without being attacked from the peanut gallery? I mean, Norma has done nothing wrong. She’s good people. She doesn’t deserve this. The dude is a psycho. And he works at a college? Wow. Kinda scary. I hope they have metal detectors!

    For the life of me I can’t understand why the dude feels it’s necessary to spend an inordinate amount of time going after someone like Norma! I try to save my venom for the bad guys, NOT someone like Norma!

  13. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Dude, your class is showing. Wow. Take a break and think about what you just wrote. It’s sad. Maybe sumthin’ is goin’ on in your life, but I don’t believe that that is the real you. Hell, I was once your biggest defender. But you see, the difference is that I attack people that need it. Norma doesn’t.

    I’m thinkin’ that you just need a break, for I know you can bring much to the debate, but not to the needless fights with other lefties. Try to move beyond your battle with Norma.

  14. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Rob, I hate to repeat myself, but just this once I will. I had a friend that was an extremely accomplished martial artist, yet he never wanted to fight. I asked him one time what he would do differently in a fight if someone came at him with a knife. He kind of looked at me funny, for that was really a stupid question which showed that I know nothing about martial arts. He then said that he would do nothing differently. For he was so well trained, that the knife meant nothing and wasn’t even worth bothering with. He would simply do what he was trained to do, which made the addition of a knife irrelevant.

    I never forgot his words and actually took them to heart. And that was some forty years ago. And now, when I’m attacked on the blogs, I do likewise. I just ignore it and do what I need to do. I simply ignore the knife attacks on the blogs. There’s no need to counter them if you do your job. It just doesn’t matter.

    Yes, probably a corny example, but a true one. If you noticed over the years, I rarely engage an attacker. Or sure, sometimes I do it just to have fun or mess with a wingnut. But I never engage in a prolonged fight, for it’s pointless.

    Now, use YOUR abundant talent to do what needs to be done and ignore the knife. Just a suggestion. ‘Sides, there’s lots of bad guys out there that need their asses kicked. I just don’t see Norma as being one of them. She’s always very interesting to read.

  15. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Well, my observation is that you BOTH have personalities that can be used for good. We don’t WANT/NEED weenies on the left. But the problem is that that the very same thing that makes you great lefties also makes you formidable combatants! I realize that. But for the greater good, sometimes it’s best to agree to take the fight to the bad guys. Just a suggestion. You see, most of posting here like you both, and it’s damn hard to watch you guys wail on each other. I’m not taking sides here, just giving you my two cents. Norma is guilty too of not letting go, and I told her as much.

  16. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    p.s. I’m the LAST person to give advice, so please don’t be offended. I offer the same advice to Norma. Hell, I drink too much all the time, but I sure enjoy a good blog read too, not endless battle. And the great thing about a blog is that you ALL bring your own experiences to the table. I want to hear all of that.

  17. Drunks for Denny

    I don’t think you drink too much, Larry. In fact, I think you’re qualified to be a United States Congressman.

  18. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    Thanks, drunk dude! And shoot, you wouldn’t have to worry ’bout me killing my staff in a drunkin’ BOATING accident, for most of the time, I can’t even find my CAR, let alone a boat! Just kidding, MAD moms. But I do so look forward to the day when your car can drive you home! I hear we’re close!……now, if I can only remember my address!

  19. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers

    p.s. I hear the Dopey Reeburp is planning to run again. If it’s close between me and Dopey, I don’t suggest a run off election, but a DRINKING contest! Hell, it’s Montana ferrchissakes! I think that that would be the appropriate way to settle a contested election! First one to pass out or barf loses! I’ll even let Dopey pick the booze!